2015.01.13 06:49 exmocaptainmoroni Shitty Mormon Books
2009.06.16 20:53 Measure76 The Best Exmormon Forum on the Internet!
2008.08.07 17:02 A place to discuss Mormonism
2023.05.30 18:21 tyloven92 "Let's Talk About Race and The Priesthood" published by Deseret Book is a must read
submitted by tyloven92 to u/tyloven92 [link] [comments]
2023.05.30 14:51 Chino_Blanco "Let's Talk About Race and The Priesthood" published by Deseret Book is a must read
submitted by Chino_Blanco to BlackLDS [link] [comments]
2023.05.30 05:17 tyloven92 "Let's Talk About Race and The Priesthood" published by Deseret Book is a must read
submitted by tyloven92 to u/tyloven92 [link] [comments]
2023.05.30 03:07 renaissance_man46 "Let's Talk About Race and The Priesthood" published by Deseret Book is a must read
2023.05.30 00:34 the_HatMaker Deseret book looking for a shawl to cover my bare shoulders for a mormon wedding and these were some 'great options for wedding gifts' according to the employees.
![]() | submitted by the_HatMaker to exmormon [link] [comments] |
2023.05.27 22:15 AutoNewspaperAdmin [Local] - Historians left no stone unturned in Mountain Meadows Massacre book Deseret
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2023.05.27 08:07 canadaduane Does volunteerism contribute to deflation?
2023.05.26 05:21 Chino_Blanco Deseret Book: Let's Talk about Race and Priesthood
submitted by Chino_Blanco to BlackLDS [link] [comments]
2023.05.25 19:11 BillReel The History of the Church's Name from "The Church of Christ" to "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"
![]() | This is from Mormonism LIVE #129: "How The Mormon Church Got Its Name" (https://youtube.com/live/fynItKRXspc). This post will examine the development of the official name of the Church A second post will discuss the other issue of the development of the use of moniker "Mormon" submitted by BillReel to mormonscholar [link] [comments] (The 1833 Book of Commandments gives Manchester rather than Fayette as the location for D&C 21 though the prevailing history of the church and a manuscript found in the First Presidency's vault, called \"The Book of Commandments and Revelations\" gives the setting for D&C 21 as Fayette, thus sustaining the traditional account of the Whitmer home as the location) (The 1833 Book of Commandments gives Manchester rather than Fayette as the location for D&C 21 though the prevailing history of the church and a manuscript found in the First Presidency's vault, called "The Book of Commandments and Revelations" gives the setting for D&C 21 as Fayette, thus sustaining the traditional account of the Whitmer home as the location) The “Church of Christ” was the original name of the Latter Day Saint church founded by Joseph Smith. Organized informally in 1829 in Upstate New York and then formally on April 6, 1830 (There is disagreement but prevailing opinion is the Whitmer home), it was the first organization to implement the principles found in Smith's newly published Book of Mormon, and thus its establishment represents the formal beginning of the Latter Day Saint movement. The church was known by this name from 1830 to 1834 "And they who were baptized in the name of Jesus were called the church of Christ." (3 Nephi 26:21, bold added) ****\* In the 1830 "Book of Mormon" edition 3rd Nephi 26:21 was part of the same chapter as 3rd Nephi 27: 3-11 ****\* 3 Nephi 27:3-11 3 And they said unto him: Lord, we will that thou wouldst tell us the name whereby we shall call this church; for there are disputations among the people concerning this matter. 4 And the Lord said unto them: Verily, verily, I say unto you, why is it that the people should murmur and dispute because of this thing? 5 Have they not read the scriptures, which say ye must take upon you the name of Christ, which is my name? For by this name shall ye be called at the last day; 6 And whoso taketh upon him my name, and endureth to the end, the same shall be saved at the last day. 7 Therefore, whatsoever ye shall do, ye shall do it in my name; therefore ye shall call the church in my name; and ye shall call upon the Father in my name that he will bless the church for my sake. Mosiah 18:16-1716 And after this manner he did baptize every one that went forth to the place of Mormon; and they were in number about two hundred and four souls; yea, and they were baptized in the waters of Mormon, and were filled with the grace of God. 17 And they were called the "church of God", or the "church of Christ", from that time forward. And it came to pass that whosoever was baptized by the power and authority of God was added to his church. D & C 20:11 The rise of the "Church of Christ" in these last days, being one thousand eight hundred and thirty years since the ccoming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the flesh, it being regularly dorganized and established agreeable to the elaws of our country, by the will and commandments of God, in the fourth month, and on the sixth day of the month which is called April ***\* Notice here God seems to have sanctioned the name "Church of Christ" in the Book of Mormon and again in the D&C 20:1******** Joseph clearly gets it right the first time..... so what happened? "**The Church of the Latter Day Saints"**On May 3, 1834, Joseph Smith, as moderator, made a motion to change the name of the church to, "The Church of the Latter Day Saints," which was adopted by unanimous vote (The Evening and Morning Star, vol. 2, no. 20, p. 160, May 1834; History of the Church 2:62). https://preview.redd.it/wyofsyaef02b1.png?width=750&format=png&auto=webp&s=c1f94734e0106720ebed6e7096081ad8403ac999 https://preview.redd.it/340ads5gf02b1.png?width=600&format=png&auto=webp&s=8a8b83dfadbcdbdc36a6b366a105c95693c53edb ***\* Notice the name of the Church for 4 years was a name that a committee of members came up with without any revelation********* https://preview.redd.it/lrnr2eqhf02b1.png?width=450&format=png&auto=webp&s=d23aa805adba5033728d15d3e606a600d1541236 Charisma under Pressure: Joseph Smith, American Prophet, 1831–1839 Dan Vogel: Reasoning for the name change ****\* Vogel suggest the name change was to confuse and hide from creditors. Ironic in light of the SEC report ****\* The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints on April 26, 1838, Smith founded a new headquarters in Far West, Missouri. At Far West on April 26, 1838, Smith recorded a revelation from God renaming the organization the "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints". The church was known by this name until after Smith's death in 1844 This new name adaptation voiced by God himself included no hyphen between Latter and Day and also include the D in Day being capitalized https://preview.redd.it/d2aesybjf02b1.png?width=800&format=png&auto=webp&s=3178264ee6c551503bb9b43130df46d5dd058b12 Detractors were disillusioned by the Church removing Christ from the name when God himself imposed the sanction through the Book of Mormon and seemingly approving the earlier name in the D&C. ***\* God's revelation to Smith was to have the name somehow combine the original idea that Christ's name be in the Church with the phrase "Latter Day Saints" that a room full of people just came up with amidst a discussion seemingly without revelation.... almost as if the name was meant to help Joseph Smith save face and embarrassment and to appease the detractors.***\* The name change seemed to be a big part of the Kirtland apostasy The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints After Smith's death, competing Latter Day Saint denominations organized under the leadership of a number of successors. The largest of these, led by Brigham Young, continued using "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" until incorporation in 1851 by the legislature of the provisional State of Deseret, when the church standardized the spelling of its name as "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints", which included a hyphenated "Latter-day" and a British-style lower-case "d".In January 1855, the legislature of Utah Territory re-enacted the charter which incorporated the church under this name.In 1876, the LDS Church issued a new edition of the Doctrine and Covenants which contains the text of significant revelations received by Joseph Smith. In this new edition—the first revision since before Smith's death—the capitalization and hyphenation of the church's name in the 1838 revelation to Smith was changed to reflect the name format the church had since adopted:[A]nd unto all the elders and people of my Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, scattered abroad in all the world; For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. D&C 115:3-4 **** Brigham Young violates the original revelation of D&C 115:3-4 and adds the hyphen and lower case D to the section as if it had been there all the time and changes the official name of the Church. RESOURCES: https://archive.org/details/EveningAndMorningStar18321834/page/n161/mode/2up - 1834 change to Church of the Latter Day Saints https://byustudies.byu.edu/online-chapters/volume-2-chapter-5/ - History of The Church noting the 1834 Name change https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/115?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1990/04/thus-shall-my-church-be-called?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2018/10/the-correct-name-of-the-church?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1990/10/mormon-should-mean-more-good?lang=eng https://archive.org/details/TimesAndSeasonsVol4/page/n307/mode/2up https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/43668-new-evidence-that-church-was-organized-at-fayette/ https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/sample-of-pure-language-between-circa-4-and-circa-20-march-1832/1 https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/book-of-commandments-1833/14 https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/revelation-march-1829-dc-5/1#source-note |
2023.05.25 18:11 BillReel The History of the Church's Name from "The Church of Christ" to "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"
![]() | This is from Mormonism LIVE #129: "How The Mormon Church Got Its Name" (https://youtube.com/live/fynItKRXspc). This post will examine the development of the official name of the Church A second post will discuss the other issue of the development of the use of moniker "Mormon" submitted by BillReel to exmormon [link] [comments] (The 1833 Book of Commandments gives Manchester rather than Fayette as the location for D&C 21 though the prevailing history of the church and a manuscript found in the First Presidency's vault, called \"The Book of Commandments and Revelations\" gives the setting for D&C 21 as Fayette, thus sustaining the traditional account of the Whitmer home as the location) The “Church of Christ” was the original name of the Latter Day Saint church founded by Joseph Smith. Organized informally in 1829 in Upstate New York and then formally on April 6, 1830 (There is disagreement but prevailing opinion is the Whitmer home), it was the first organization to implement the principles found in Smith's newly published Book of Mormon, and thus its establishment represents the formal beginning of the Latter Day Saint movement. The church was known by this name from 1830 to 1834 "And they who were baptized in the name of Jesus were called the church of Christ." (3 Nephi 26:21, bold added) ****\* In the 1830 "Book of Mormon" edition 3rd Nephi 26:21 was part of the same chapter as 3rd Nephi 27: 3-11 ****\* 3 Nephi 27:3-11 3 And they said unto him: Lord, we will that thou wouldst tell us the name whereby we shall call this church; for there are disputations among the people concerning this matter. 4 And the Lord said unto them: Verily, verily, I say unto you, why is it that the people should murmur and dispute because of this thing? 5 Have they not read the scriptures, which say ye must take upon you the name of Christ, which is my name? For by this name shall ye be called at the last day; 6 And whoso taketh upon him my name, and endureth to the end, the same shall be saved at the last day. 7 Therefore, whatsoever ye shall do, ye shall do it in my name; therefore ye shall call the church in my name; and ye shall call upon the Father in my name that he will bless the church for my sake. Mosiah 18:16-1716 And after this manner he did baptize every one that went forth to the place of Mormon; and they were in number about two hundred and four souls; yea, and they were baptized in the waters of Mormon, and were filled with the grace of God. 17 And they were called the "church of God", or the "church of Christ", from that time forward. And it came to pass that whosoever was baptized by the power and authority of God was added to his church. D & C 20:11 The rise of the "Church of Christ" in these last days, being one thousand eight hundred and thirty years since the ccoming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the flesh, it being regularly dorganized and established agreeable to the elaws of our country, by the will and commandments of God, in the fourth month, and on the sixth day of the month which is called April ***\* Notice here God seems to have sanctioned the name "Church of Christ" in the Book of Mormon and again in the D&C 20:1******** Joseph clearly gets it right the first time..... so what happened? "The Church of the Latter Day Saints"On May 3, 1834, Joseph Smith, as moderator, made a motion to change the name of the church to, "The Church of the Latter Day Saints," which was adopted by unanimous vote (The Evening and Morning Star, vol. 2, no. 20, p. 160, May 1834; History of the Church 2:62). https://preview.redd.it/b3z3wyyq002b1.png?width=750&format=png&auto=webp&s=72d52294f5be070e85c1fc74f3664fbcb0dcc9e9 https://preview.redd.it/u5f6hh1s002b1.png?width=600&format=png&auto=webp&s=7d7b0aad9db624190aee1f67e43150852c8e12ff ***\* Notice the name of the Church for 4 years was a name that a committee of members came up with without any revelation********* Charisma under Pressure: Joseph Smith, American Prophet, 1831–1839 Dan Vogel: Reasoning for the name change ****\* Vogel suggest the name change was to confuse and hide from creditors. Ironic in light of the SEC report ****\* The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints on April 26, 1838, Smith founded a new headquarters in Far West, Missouri. At Far West on April 26, 1838, Smith recorded a revelation from God renaming the organization the "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints". The church was known by this name until after Smith's death in 1844 This new name adaptation voiced by God himself included no hyphen between Latter and Day and also include the D in Day being capitalized Detractors were disillusioned by the Church removing Christ from the name when God himself imposed the sanction through the Book of Mormon and seemingly approving the earlier name in the D&C. ***\* God's revelation to Smith was to have the name somehow combine the original idea that Christ's name be in the Church with the phrase "Latter Day Saints" that a room full of people just came up with amidst a discussion seemingly without revelation.... almost as if the name was meant to help Joseph Smith save face and embarrassment and to appease the detractors.***\* The name change seemed to be a big part of the Kirtland apostasy The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints After Smith's death, competing Latter Day Saint denominations organized under the leadership of a number of successors. The largest of these, led by Brigham Young, continued using "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" until incorporation in 1851 by the legislature of the provisional State of Deseret, when the church standardized the spelling of its name as "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints", which included a hyphenated "Latter-day" and a British-style lower-case "d".In January 1855, the legislature of Utah Territory re-enacted the charter which incorporated the church under this name.In 1876, the LDS Church issued a new edition of the Doctrine and Covenants which contains the text of significant revelations received by Joseph Smith. In this new edition—the first revision since before Smith's death—the capitalization and hyphenation of the church's name in the 1838 revelation to Smith was changed to reflect the name format the church had since adopted:[A]nd unto all the elders and people of my Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, scattered abroad in all the world; For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. D&C 115:3-4 **** Brigham Young violates the original revelation of D&C 115:3-4 and adds the hyphen and lower case D to the section as if it had been there all the time and changes the official name of the Church. RESOURCES:https://archive.org/details/EveningAndMorningStar18321834/page/n161/mode/2up - 1834 change to Church of the Latter Day Saintshttps://byustudies.byu.edu/online-chapters/volume-2-chapter-5/ - History of The Church noting the 1834 Name changehttps://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/115?lang=enghttps://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1990/04/thus-shall-my-church-be-called?lang=enghttps://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2018/10/the-correct-name-of-the-church?lang=enghttps://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1990/10/mormon-should-mean-more-good?lang=enghttps://archive.org/details/TimesAndSeasonsVol4/page/n307/mode/2uphttps://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/43668-new-evidence-that-church-was-organized-at-fayette/https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/sample-of-pure-language-between-circa-4-and-circa-20-march-1832/1https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/book-of-commandments-1833/14https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/revelation-march-1829-dc-5/1#source-note |
2023.05.25 18:11 BillReel The History of the Church's Name from "The Church of Christ" to "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"
![]() | This is from Mormonism LIVE #129: "How The Mormon Church Got Its Name" (https://youtube.com/live/fynItKRXspc). This post will examine the development of the official name of the Church A second post will discuss the other issue of the development of the use of moniker "Mormon" submitted by BillReel to mormon [link] [comments] https://preview.redd.it/m2ersszf402b1.png?width=500&format=png&auto=webp&s=9c5c6296876e000a8b6f402a0a72a037aafd8865 The “Church of Christ” was the original name of the Latter Day Saint church founded by Joseph Smith. Organized informally in 1829 in Upstate New York and then formally on April 6, 1830 (There is disagreement but prevailing opinion is the Whitmer home), it was the first organization to implement the principles found in Smith's newly published Book of Mormon, and thus its establishment represents the formal beginning of the Latter Day Saint movement. The church was known by this name from 1830 to 1834 "And they who were baptized in the name of Jesus were called the church of Christ." (3 Nephi 26:21, bold added) ****\* In the 1830 "Book of Mormon" edition 3rd Nephi 26:21 was part of the same chapter as 3rd Nephi 27: 3-11 ****\* 3 Nephi 27:3-11 3 And they said unto him: Lord, we will that thou wouldst tell us the name whereby we shall call this church; for there are disputations among the people concerning this matter. 4 And the Lord said unto them: Verily, verily, I say unto you, why is it that the people should murmur and dispute because of this thing? 5 Have they not read the scriptures, which say ye must take upon you the name of Christ, which is my name? For by this name shall ye be called at the last day; 6 And whoso taketh upon him my name, and endureth to the end, the same shall be saved at the last day. 7 Therefore, whatsoever ye shall do, ye shall do it in my name; therefore ye shall call the church in my name; and ye shall call upon the Father in my name that he will bless the church for my sake. Mosiah 18:16-1716 And after this manner he did baptize every one that went forth to the place of Mormon; and they were in number about two hundred and four souls; yea, and they were baptized in the waters of Mormon, and were filled with the grace of God. 17 And they were called the "church of God", or the "church of Christ", from that time forward. And it came to pass that whosoever was baptized by the power and authority of God was added to his church. D & C 20:11 The rise of the "Church of Christ" in these last days, being one thousand eight hundred and thirty years since the ccoming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the flesh, it being regularly dorganized and established agreeable to the elaws of our country, by the will and commandments of God, in the fourth month, and on the sixth day of the month which is called April ***\* Notice here God seems to have sanctioned the name "Church of Christ" in the Book of Mormon and again in the D&C 20:1******** Joseph clearly gets it right the first time..... so what happened? "The Church of the Latter Day Saints"On May 3, 1834, Joseph Smith, as moderator, made a motion to change the name of the church to, "The Church of the Latter Day Saints," which was adopted by unanimous vote (The Evening and Morning Star, vol. 2, no. 20, p. 160, May 1834; History of the Church 2:62). https://preview.redd.it/vfm5w2cn402b1.png?width=750&format=png&auto=webp&s=d8bf0e9a92523c8d43e93a09286ecc5e4d7cde07 https://preview.redd.it/y00albuo402b1.png?width=600&format=png&auto=webp&s=87eacb73a6fb4ae9b62b72a24b10513ed472895a ***\* Notice the name of the Church for 4 years was a name that a committee of members came up with without any revelation********* https://preview.redd.it/ph11wgrq402b1.png?width=450&format=png&auto=webp&s=e5bb8f9c87058590f98ee81de6498fe1a00816e3 ****\* Vogel suggest the name change was to confuse and hide from creditors. Ironic in light of the SEC report ****\* The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints on April 26, 1838, Smith founded a new headquarters in Far West, Missouri. At Far West on April 26, 1838, Smith recorded a revelation from God renaming the organization the "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints". The church was known by this name until after Smith's death in 1844 This new name adaptation voiced by God himself included no hyphen between Latter and Day and also include the D in Day being capitalized https://preview.redd.it/kt03y9fs402b1.png?width=800&format=png&auto=webp&s=f30c2cc9b2c0ec760bee64d593e8d82334e60fb4 ***\* God's revelation to Smith was to have the name somehow combine the original idea that Christ's name be in the Church with the phrase "Latter Day Saints" that a room full of people just came up with amidst a discussion seemingly without revelation.... almost as if the name was meant to help Joseph Smith save face and embarrassment and to appease the detractors.***\* https://preview.redd.it/t96067ru402b1.png?width=550&format=png&auto=webp&s=e44e17297b14151a48ab1ea16d37624337f4ab3b The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints After Smith's death, competing Latter Day Saint denominations organized under the leadership of a number of successors. The largest of these, led by Brigham Young, continued using "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" until incorporation in 1851 by the legislature of the provisional State of Deseret, when the church standardized the spelling of its name as "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints", which included a hyphenated "Latter-day" and a British-style lower-case "d".In January 1855, the legislature of Utah Territory re-enacted the charter which incorporated the church under this name.In 1876, the LDS Church issued a new edition of the Doctrine and Covenants which contains the text of significant revelations received by Joseph Smith. In this new edition—the first revision since before Smith's death—the capitalization and hyphenation of the church's name in the 1838 revelation to Smith was changed to reflect the name format the church had since adopted:[A]nd unto all the elders and people of my Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, scattered abroad in all the world; For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. D&C 115:3-4 **** Brigham Young violates the original revelation of D&C 115:3-4 and adds the hyphen and lower case D to the section as if it had been there all the time and changes the official name of the Church. RESOURCES:https://archive.org/details/EveningAndMorningStar18321834/page/n161/mode/2up - 1834 change to Church of the Latter Day Saintshttps://byustudies.byu.edu/online-chapters/volume-2-chapter-5/ - History of The Church noting the 1834 Name changehttps://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/115?lang=enghttps://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1990/04/thus-shall-my-church-be-called?lang=enghttps://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2018/10/the-correct-name-of-the-church?lang=enghttps://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1990/10/mormon-should-mean-more-good?lang=enghttps://archive.org/details/TimesAndSeasonsVol4/page/n307/mode/2uphttps://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/43668-new-evidence-that-church-was-organized-at-fayette/https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/sample-of-pure-language-between-circa-4-and-circa-20-march-1832/1https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/book-of-commandments-1833/14https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/revelation-march-1829-dc-5/1#source-note |
2023.05.25 01:13 WinchelltheMagician The History we Learned after Conversion was loaded with Lies; Exhibit A
![]() | This is from Alma Burton's 1960 publication (by Deseret Books) Mormon Trail, from Vermont to Utah. This little history/travel guide informed my family. He described Joseph Smith in this way: " he introduced and develoepd a religious philosphy that isnunexcelled for completeness and cohesion. In an organizing age he established the most perfect organization known in the world today...." submitted by WinchelltheMagician to exmormon [link] [comments] So.......this section mentions the court trial of Joseph Smith but fails to mention that he was brought into court for being a treasure digging conman--a "disorderly person" for glass looking/scrying. In this history, Alma Burton says Joseph Smith was brought into court and called a "disorderly person... for preaching the Book of Mormon". Of course, no mention of the treasure hunting guy with stone in hat. https://preview.redd.it/nxiku11ehw1b1.jpg?width=462&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a4dc2444acbf3f2a1a2d94ea3612c156fcafd668 |
2023.05.23 17:55 Moronibot 📅 2023-05-22 📚 LDS Nerd Alert 🤓: Dive into Dan Peterson's take on faith, decode the Olivet Sermon 🌿, & discover a divine house explosion rescue! 🏠💥👼
2023.05.23 12:53 unculturedmorm "Let's Talk About Race And Priesthood" by W. Paul Reeves seems to be making some waves -- any other rumors out there?
2023.05.22 22:45 devilsravioli ISO resources relating the experiences of early (1840-1870) LDS (Utah) missionaries and converts from Europe as they confront polygamy.
2023.05.19 21:02 tdkard28 Interesting find on the copyright page of a church published book set, "The Prophets Have Spoken" by Eric Bateman.
2023.05.17 21:21 Mikhael_Maritain Russell M. Nelson on Secrecy. A few examples from his autobiography.
![]() | submitted by Mikhael_Maritain to exmormon [link] [comments] The International Man of Mystery TLDR: By the shores of Salt Lake City in the temple on a Sunday Spence and Russell had a meeting hidden from the hoi polloi – It is there the man-child Nelson, glowing with self-admiration, greedy-eyed for adulation, got his Second Attaboy! – “You have Godhood’s Golden Ticket!” Spence explained to his apprentice, “You must strive to keep this secret hidden from the hoi polloi!” – “We won’t tells it! We will hints it!” Gollum smiles with Smeagol Nelson. “All must know that Righteous Russell™ gots his Second Attaboy!” – Take thy shoes from off thy footsies! Time of wonder! Much to ponder! Diving like a plane in Delta scroll down further and enjoy! – (Excerpt from The Song of Russell Nelson by Sir Nigel Ian Underbottom from his celebrated series of monographs titled Parowan Morning Honey Bucket Meditations.) [Thanks Sir Nigel!] Unless otherwise noted all quotes are from Nelson’s 1979 autobiography, From Heart to Heart. https://archive.org/details/from-heart-to-heart-an-autobiography-russell-m.-nelson/url (AND, thanks to our brothers and sisters at Mormon Reddit, we now know that Spencer W. Kimball’s fawning forward in Nelson’s From Heart to Heart was ghost-written by none other than Nelson, himself. https://www.reddit.com/mormon/comments/1139rug/president_nelson_ghostwrote_the_foreword_to_his) [All BOLDING is mine for emphasis]: On page 359 in his chapter titled Highlights of 1974, Nelson writes: “June 4 -- … President Spencer W. Kimball called me in to notify me that Dantzel and I were to report to the temple on June 9. … “June 9 - Dantzel and I were privileged to enter the temple on this Sabbath day to attend a special meeting at the invitation of President Spencer W. Kimball. The sacred nature of this event precludes our mentioning more about it here other than to say that it did take place, but this experience is of the greatest importance to us and to our family.” All good fathers, LDS or otherwise, wish to do what is “of greatest importance” to their families. We wish that Nelson would elaborate on this momentous event. But, no: It is Secret. On page 185 from his chapter titled Spencer W. Kimball – II, Nelson writes: “These recollections are just abstractions of these choice experiences. Meetings of even deeper meaning we have had together, some of which are too sacred even to record here where other eyes may view them, for I have been pledged by him to secrecy. Only Dantzel knows of those experiences, having shared them with me.” In fact, it is so secret that Church Lawyers threatened Our Brother Nemo with legal action unless he removed the video of Jeffrey Holland sticking his foot in his mouth when speaking to the British saints, almost spilling the beans as regards his second anointing: Church lawyers contact British member to remove video of British fireside https://discussmormonism.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=154255 The following is another example of Russell playing the too-sacred-to-tell game: “Since the passing of President Lee, I have had two very special dreams involving him. The first was in April of 1975. The substance of that message is too sacred to mention here, but it was a very reassuring and humbling experience.” Source: From Heart to Heart. Quality Press, Inc: Russell M. Nelson. 1979, pp. 159-160 As Nelson’s visits from the Angel Harold B. Lee go unmentioned in his later biographies by Spencer Condie and Sheri Dew, the following posts offers a deeper dive for the uninitiated: Russell M. Nelson Receives Further Light and Knowledge from the Angel Harold https://www.reddit.com/exmormon/comments/sxt4bx/russell\_m\_nelson\_receives\_further\_light\_and/ Russell M. Nelson, Apostle Hugh B. Brown, the Angel Harold, and the Sailboat Sealestial https://www.reddit.com/exmormon/comments/t8pel3/russell_m_nelson_apostle_hugh_b_brown_the_angel/ Now, what about the word “Confidential”? The breach of Doctor-Patient confidentiality is illegal by today’s HIPAA statutes. However, back in Russell’s day, it would have been considered as merely an unprofessional and unethical breach of trust. It seems that the Prophet Harold B. Lee and his next-in-line Apostle Spencer W. Kimball were not on good speaking terms. So much so that…Well, let’s allow Russell to explain on pp. 166-168 from his autobiography: “It was not long, though, before I received a phone call from President Harold B. Lee, who in his commanding tone said, ‘I want you to tell me about Spencer. I want to know why he was in the hospital, what you did, and how ill he is, for he has assigned himself to go to Great Britain and South Africa, and I just don't want him to go on such a long journey if it would constitute risk to his life. Therefore, I need to know what's going on.’ President Lee was truly concerned for the welfare of President Kimball. “I was torn by two very profound loyalties: one, the loyalty of a doctor to his patient, which is always one of great confidence and privilege, and which in this case had been reinforced by my word to President Kimball that nothing would be said to the Brethren. On the other hand, I was now speaking with the president of the Church, the prophet for whom I prayed daily, who was asking for help that only I could give. I knew that the request of the president of the Church, the prophet of God, had to take higher priority than any other loyalties. I told him all that I knew about President Kimball's illness.” Does the Church “hide things”? Of course it does, and Russell approves. On p. 157 of his autobiography, Nelson writes: I visited President Lee's home one Sunday evening when we had another matter to discuss. He greeted me so warmly and cordially. Then with almost a sudden and abrupt change of mood, he was very stern and he shook his finger at me and said, "Brother Nelson, I don't want you ever to approve deviation from the prescribed curriculum and courses in Sunday School.” Somewhat startled by his abrupt announcement, I waited for the amplification of what he had on his mind, and he told me. He said, "Today I was in Sunday School in my own home ward. There, a distinguished teacher at the university served as my Sunday School teacher. That was just fine, but he proceeded to give a lesson which bore no resemblance to the approved curriculum as developed by the Church. Never, never give approval to these deviations!" “Although I wondered at the time why he dealt with me in such a firm manner, I have long since understood the wisdom in his doing so, because I've received so many questions in the succeeding years with regard to deviation from the approved curriculum. There's never been any doubt in my mind as to what should be the correct answer. Of course, President Lee knew all this.” For a deeper dive into the church racial doctrines as understood by Harold B. Lee and Russell M. Nelson in the halcyon days of their relationship, the following links are provided: Lee, Harold B. Decisions for Successful Living. Deseret Book Company, 1973, excerpts from Chapter 15 titled Youth of a Noble Birthright. https://vozesmormons.org/harold-b-lees-white-supremacist-teachings/ Stake President Russell M. Nelson’s 1971 response to – in his words -- “the question of the Negro and the Priesthood.” https://www.reddit.com/exmormon/comments/ssb3lg/stake_president_russell_m_nelsons_1971_response/ In summary, we learned that Nelson has no issues with Church secrets, confidentiality (or the violations thereof when it suits him) or the hiding of Church History (of which he was fully complicit). For those who wish to dig deeper into our International Man of Mystery, Russell M. Nelson, here are a few links: Tinker Tailor Soldier Russell https://discussmormonism.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=154103 A Time to be Born. A Time to Die. A Time to Play Golf. https://discussmormonism.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=154424 Russell and Hugh on the Sailboat Sealestial https://discussmormonism.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1316 Swabbing the Decks of the Sailboat Sealestial https://discussmormonism.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=154047 Have a Good Day |
2023.05.17 05:06 dice1899 LFMW Rebuttal, Part 17: The Early Church – Polygamy [B]
This is a prime example of that bad framing I was just talking about. Joseph was always extremely careful with his words when he discussed plural marriage. Those “outright denials” are not exactly what they appear to be at first glance, and they were made for very specific reasons. This is where critical thinking skills are going to come into play. We can accept the surface-level analysis that Falk presents, or we can look a little deeper and realize that this situation was far more complicated and deadly than he would have us believe it was.Additional marriages were kept secret and when word began to spread Joseph turned to outright denial.
- Secrets and Denial
1. Emily and Eliza PartridgeIt’s true that Joseph was sealed to both Emily and Eliza Partridge before Emma gave her permission for them to be sealed. It’s also true that they were sealed a second time in her presence without telling her about the first sealings in order to keep the peace. The rest of Emily’s story illustrates why such extreme measures were employed.
Emily and Eliza were the daughters of the first bishop of the Church, Edward Partridge. When he passed away, his daughters Emily (16) and Eliza (20) sought work as maids to help support their family. Emily recalls:
“The first door that opened for us was to go to Smith’s, which we accepted.” “[I was] a nurse girl, for they had a young baby ... Joseph and Emma were very kind to us; they were almost like a father and mother, and I loved Emma and the children.” “the Prophet Joseph and his wife Emma offered us a home in their family … We had been there about a year when the principle of plural marriage was made known to us, and I was married to Joseph Smith on the 4th of March 1843, Elder Heber C. Kimball performing the ceremony. My sister Eliza was also married to Joseph a few days later. This was done without the knowledge of Emma Smith. Two months afterward she consented to give her husband two wives, providing he would give her the privilege of choosing them. She accordingly chose my sister Eliza and myself, and to save family trouble Brother Joseph thought it best to have another ceremony performed. Accordingly on the 11th of May, 1843, we were sealed to Joseph Smith a second time, in Emma’s presence … From that very hour, however, Emma was our bitter enemy. We remained in the family several months after this, but things went from bad to worse until we were obligated to leave the house and find another home.” (Emily Partridge’s journal)
Emma was present [at the sealing of Emily and Eliza]. She gave her free and full consent. She had always up to this time, been very kind to me and my sister Eliza, who was also married to the Prophet Joseph Smith with Emma’s consent; but ever after she was our enemy. She used every means in her power to injure us in the eyes of her husband, and before strangers, and in consequence of her abuse we were obliged to leave the city to gratify her, but things were overruled otherwise, and we remained in Nauvoo. My sister Eliza found a home with the family of Brother Joseph Coolidge, and I went to live with Sister Sylvia Lyons. She was a good woman, and one of the Lord’s chosen few.Emma’s hurt and anger over plural marriage are well known. There are multiple stories of her losing her temper and causing scenes and even physical harm to others. These stories led to a strong resentment against her from the Saints who crossed the plains to Utah, which unfortunately lasted for generations. I’ve noticed a shift in attitude toward her even in my lifetime, which means it hung on for 150 years.
23 August 1843, Wednesday Nauvoo 2Joseph had apparently given Flora a gold watch. He’d also given gold watches to Emma and to Eliza R. Snow, so it was something of a special token he gave out on occasion. When Emma went to visit the Woodworth family that day, she discovered Flora’s watch. It’s not clear how she discovered it or what Emma knew of the union before that point, but she became upset over the watch and demanded it back. Flora wouldn’t give it to her, and the argument was still on-going when Joseph arrived to pick her up. He told Emma to stop and they quickly left, though many decades later Seymour B. Young said that before they did so, Emma actually did crush the watch under the heel of her boot. We have no way of knowing whether his recollection is true or not.
Wednesday 23rd. … Prest J. told me that he had difficulty with E. yesterday. She rode up to Woodworths with him & caled while he came to the Temple. When he returned she was demanding the gold watch of F. he reproved her for her evil treatment. On their return home she abused him much & also when he got home. he had to use harsh measures to put a stop to her abuse but finally succeeded.
2. Letter from Joseph Smith to Sarah Ann Whitney:This is disingenuous framing. This letter was not a love letter written to Sarah Ann Whitney. It was a letter written to her and her parents, asking them to come visit him while he was in hiding. I’ve cleaned up the spelling and grammar, though you can see the original at the cited link. It says:
“…my feelings are so strong for you since what has passed lately between us…it seems, as if I could not live long in this way; and if you three would come and see me…it would afford me great relief…I know it is the will of God that you should comfort me now in this time of affliction…the only thing to be careful of; is to find out when Emma comes then you cannot be safe, but when she is not here, there is the most perfect safety…burn this letter as soon as you read it; keep all locked up in your breasts…You will pardon me for my earnestness on this subject when you consider how lonesome I must be…I think Emma wont come tonight if she don’t fail to come tonight…” (Joseph Smith, George Albert Smith Family Papers, Early Smith Documents, 1731-1849, Folder 18, in the Special Collections, Western Americana, Marriott Library, University of Utah)
Dear and Beloved Brother and Sister Whitney, and &c.—So, just to explain what was happening, this was in the aftermath of the assassination attempt on Lilburn W. Boggs, the governor of Missouri who issued the extermination order against the Saints. Joseph was being blamed in the press and local gossip for putting a hit out on him. A Missouri sheriff came to arrest him and take him back to Missouri. He fought the extradition and was released, so he went into hiding for a few weeks to prevent it happening again, or in case any of Boggs’s supporters wanted revenge. Posses were out searching for him in Illinois and Iowa territory, and he was afraid they would try to kill him rather than extradite him.
I take this opportunity to communicate some of my feelings privately at this time, which I want you three eternally to keep in your own bosoms; for my feelings are so strong for you since what has passed lately between us, that the time of my absence from you seems so long, and dreary, that it seems, as if I could not live long in this way: and if you three would come and see me in this, my lonely retreat, it would afford me great relief of mind, if those with whom I am allied, do love me; now is the time to afford me succor, in the days of exile, for you know I foretold you of these things. I am now at Carlos Granger’s, just back of Brother Hyrum’s farm. It is only one mile from town. The nights are very pleasant indeed. All three of you come can come and see me in the fore part of the night. Let Brother Whitney come a little ahead, and knock at the southeast corner of the house at the window; it is next to the cornfield. I have a room entirely by myself. The whole matter can be attended to with most perfect safety. I know it is the will of God that you should comfort me now in this time of affliction, or not at all. Now is the time or never, but I have no need of saying any such thing to you, for I know the goodness of your hearts, and that you will do the will of the Lord when it is made known to you. The only thing to be careful of is to find out when Emma comes. Then you cannot be safe, but when she is not here, there is the most perfect safety. Only, be careful to escape observation, as much as possible. I know it is a heroic undertaking; but so much the greater friendship, and the more joy. When I see you, I will tell you all my plans; I cannot write them on paper. Burn this letter as soon as you read it; keep all locked up in your breasts. My life depends upon it. One thing I want to see you for is to get the fulness of my blessings sealed upon our heads, &c., you will pardon me for my earnestness on this subject when you consider how lonesome I must be. Your good feelings know how to make every allowance for me. I close my letter. I think Emma won’t come tonight. If she doesn’t, don’t fail to come tonight. I subscribe myself your most obedient and affectionate companion, and friend.
Joseph Smith
I am ready to go with you if you are obliged to leave; and Hyrum says he will go with me. I shall make the best arrangements I can and be as well prepared as possible. But still I feel good confidence that you can be protected without leaving this country. There are more ways than one to take care of you, and I believe that you can still direct in your business concerns if we are all of us prudent in the matter. If it was pleasant weather I should contrive to see you this evening, but I dare not run too much of a risk, on account of so many going to see you.On August 17, 1842, the next day, Joseph’s journal recorded that local rumors were saying his location had been discovered. Emma came to him and together, they decided he needed to move to Carlos Granger’s house. That information found at the same link as her letter above.
3. 1835 Statement on MarriageThis one is also dishonestly presented. The 1835 Statement on Marriage was written alongside the 1835 Statement on Governments and Laws in General. These joint statements were written by Oliver Cowdery, not Joseph Smith. And there were very specific reasons why they were written.
While still before the official revelation on plural marriage in 1843, an early edition of the Doctrine and Covenants (Sec 109:4) reprints a statement by Joseph addressing the public’s concern with his illegal practice of polygamy:
“Statement on Marriage. August 17, 1835. Inasmuch as this Church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again. (http://josephsmithpapers.org/paper Summary/doctrine-andcovenants-1844?p=441) This passage has since been removed from later editions of the D&C.In 1835, the official doctrine of the Church was monogamy, not plural marriage. It was later removed because it was not a revelation, just a statement of doctrine in 1835. By 1841, the official revelation on marriage was beginning to be taught to many of Joseph’s inner circle. In 1852, it was announced publicly to the world. By 1876 when it was officially replaced, the 1835 Statement on Marriage had been outdated for decades. It was no longer official doctrine, and was replaced by something that was official doctrine.
Why would Joseph mention that the Church was accused of the crime of polygamy in 1835 when supposedly God didn’t reveal this practice until 1843?God revealed the practice at least by the time of Abraham. In this dispensation, it was in 1831.
Probably because by the time that Section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants was written, Joseph had wed 29 women by his own desire.Where is the evidence that it was by his own desire? All of the accounts from those actually involved say that Joseph was commanded to be sealed to specific women and reluctant to act on those commands.
4. As late as 1844, Joseph continues to deny his involvement in polygamy, despite having well over 30 wives by this point.Like the other examples given here, this one requires some backstory and explanation. Again, this is not framed accurately.
“I had not been married scarcely five minutes, and made one proclamation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives…I wish the grand jury would tell me who they are - whether it will be a curse or blessing to me. I am quite tired of the fools asking me…What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers.” (Joseph Smith, Nauvoo, History of the Church, May 26 1844, vol.6, pp.410-411)So, again, this was a very specific statement made in response to specific allegations. Under Illinois law in the 1840s, if someone didn’t publicly announce adultery or polygamy, they weren’t guilty of engaging in it. If it was kept private, Joseph wasn’t breaking the law.
For the last three years I have a record of all my acts and proceedings, for I have kept several good, faithful, and efficient clerks in constant employ: they have accompanied me everywhere, and carefully kept my history, and they have written down what I have done, where I have been, and what I have said; therefore my enemies cannot charge me with any day, time, or place, but what I have written testimony to prove my actions; and my enemies cannot prove anything against me.This is why he said he could prove them all perjurers, because he had scribes following him everywhere and recording everything he said and did. Remember, they were alleging that Joseph admitted to having an adulterous affair with Maria Lawrence, one of his sealed wives. Joseph could prove that allegation false.
I had not been married scarcely five minutes, and made one proclamation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives. I mean to live and proclaim the truth as long as I can.I quoted a large chunk of this because I think it’s important to know what he was actually saying. He was saying that he wasn’t an adulterer and that they were lying in their charges against him. Under the law, he wasn’t guilty of adultery or polygamy, because he wasn’t admitting it publicly. He did legally only have one wife, even if he was sealed for time for others and for eternity with multiple others. He was being very, very careful with his words, but his comments were in response to the specific allegations made against him. It was not a blanket denial. It was a denial that he was flaunting his relationship with Maria Lawrence around town, and it was a denial that he’d admitted to William and Wilson Law that he was engaging in adultery with her.
This new holy prophet [William Law] has gone to Carthage and swore that I had told him that I was guilty of adultery. This spiritual wifeism! Why, a man dares not speak or wink, for fear of being accused of this. William Law testified before forty policemen, and the assembly room full of witnesses, that he testified under oath that he never had heard or seen or knew anything immoral or criminal against me. ... I had not prophesied against William Law. He swore under oath that he was satisfied that he was ready to lay down his life for me, and he swears that I have committed adultery. I wish the grand jury would tell me who they are—whether it will be a curse or blessing to me. I am quite tired of the fools asking me.
A man asked me whether the commandment was given that a man may have seven wives; and now the new prophet has charged me with adultery. ... There is another Law, not the prophet, who was cashiered for dishonesty and robbing the government. Wilson Law also swears that I told him I was guilty of adultery. Brother Jonathan Dunham can swear to the contrary. I have been chained. I have rattled chains before in a dungeon for the truth's sake. I am innocent of all these charges, and you can bear witness of my innocence, for you know me yourselves....
Be meek and lowly, upright and pure; render good for evil. If you bring on yourselves your own destruction, I will complain. It is not right for a man to bear down his neck to the oppressor always. Be humble and patient in all circumstances of life; we shall then triumph more gloriously. What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one.
I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers. I labored with these apostates myself until I was out of all manner of patience; and then I sent my brother Hyrum, whom they virtually kicked out of doors. I then sent Mr. Backenstos, when they declared that they were my enemies. I told Mr. Backenstos that he might tell the Laws, if they had any cause against me I would go before the Church, and confess it to the world. He [William Law] was summoned time and again, but refused to come. Dr. Bernhisel and Elder Rigdon know that I speak the truth. I cite you to Captain Dunham, Esquires Johnson and Wells, Brother Hatfield and others, for the truth of what I have said. I have said this to let my friends know that I am right.
2023.05.15 00:41 sgtjoy The Jesus mission. Chapter 2
2023.05.11 08:54 ConstructionGlass510 Walk
2023.05.10 20:29 SpidercouchCollectiv Spidercouch Collective - Ken Sanders Interview
![]() | submitted by SpidercouchCollectiv to SaltLakeCity [link] [comments] https://preview.redd.it/qcju8mhvr1za1.jpg?width=3000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c119a486e12353b5b8a74cc1f15e4ede7c414efa Hey y'all! We did a little interview with the legendary Ken Sanders of Ken Sanders Rare Books about his new location in The Leonardo, the changing face of downtown SLC, the history of the Joe Hill mural on the side of Ken's building, Utah/Deseret's past and Ken's plans for an interpretive exhibit on the subject! Thought some here might be interested. Check it out at https://spidercouchcollective.substack.com/p/theres-a-hell-of-a-good-universe |
2023.05.09 16:50 jamesallred My top 5 sunday school teachings that are NOT true in the way the church teaches that they are true.