Deseret book

Shitty Mormon Books

2015.01.13 06:49 exmocaptainmoroni Shitty Mormon Books

We've all seen them: whether in Deseret Book display cases or on our Mormon relatives' shelves. There are a lot of hilariously shitty Mormon books. This is a place to post and discuss reviews, ads, summaries, articles and whatever else on the huge collection of shitty Mormon books that exists out there.
[link]


2009.06.16 20:53 Measure76 The Best Exmormon Forum on the Internet!

A forum for ex-mormons and others who have been affected by mormonism to get support and share news, commentary, and comedy about the Mormon church.
[link]


2008.08.07 17:02 A place to discuss Mormonism

/Mormon is a subreddit for articles and topics of interest to people interested in Mormon themes. People of all faiths and perspectives are welcome to engage in civil, respectful discussion about topics related to Mormonism.
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2023.05.30 18:21 tyloven92 "Let's Talk About Race and The Priesthood" published by Deseret Book is a must read

submitted by tyloven92 to u/tyloven92 [link] [comments]


2023.05.30 14:51 Chino_Blanco "Let's Talk About Race and The Priesthood" published by Deseret Book is a must read

submitted by Chino_Blanco to BlackLDS [link] [comments]


2023.05.30 05:17 tyloven92 "Let's Talk About Race and The Priesthood" published by Deseret Book is a must read

submitted by tyloven92 to u/tyloven92 [link] [comments]


2023.05.30 03:07 renaissance_man46 "Let's Talk About Race and The Priesthood" published by Deseret Book is a must read

This book provides an excellent and honest history of "the priesthood ban". It also makes the unequivocal case that the ban was a result of racism- not revelation. As far as I can tell, this is the first time Deseret Book has published anything that clearly makes the case that barring People of Color from receiving the priesthood and temple ordinances was racism.
Personally, this book felt like a breath of fresh air, and seems like a significant step forward toward rooting out racism, individually and as an organization.
I haven't really heard anyone talk about the book? Have you read it? If so, what are your thoughts?
submitted by renaissance_man46 to latterdaysaints [link] [comments]


2023.05.30 00:34 the_HatMaker Deseret book looking for a shawl to cover my bare shoulders for a mormon wedding and these were some 'great options for wedding gifts' according to the employees.

Deseret book looking for a shawl to cover my bare shoulders for a mormon wedding and these were some 'great options for wedding gifts' according to the employees. submitted by the_HatMaker to exmormon [link] [comments]


2023.05.27 22:15 AutoNewspaperAdmin [Local] - Historians left no stone unturned in Mountain Meadows Massacre book Deseret

[Local] - Historians left no stone unturned in Mountain Meadows Massacre book Deseret submitted by AutoNewspaperAdmin to AutoNewspaper [link] [comments]


2023.05.27 08:07 canadaduane Does volunteerism contribute to deflation?

We have a local good will store called Deseret Industries ("DI"). They have great prices on used clothing, toys, books, etc. My wife mentioned that when she went in today, there was a local church congregation volunteering there--sorting things, putting things on clothing racks, etc.
This got me thinking--do these volunteers cause prices to be lower at DI? If you follow this thinking more broadly--does volunteerism in the economy more generally cause prices to drop? And would that then become a contributing factor of deflation?
submitted by canadaduane to AskEconomics [link] [comments]


2023.05.26 05:21 Chino_Blanco Deseret Book: Let's Talk about Race and Priesthood

submitted by Chino_Blanco to BlackLDS [link] [comments]


2023.05.25 19:11 BillReel The History of the Church's Name from "The Church of Christ" to "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"

The History of the Church's Name from
This is from Mormonism LIVE #129: "How The Mormon Church Got Its Name" (https://youtube.com/live/fynItKRXspc). This post will examine the development of the official name of the Church A second post will discuss the other issue of the development of the use of moniker "Mormon"

(The 1833 Book of Commandments gives Manchester rather than Fayette as the location for D&C 21 though the prevailing history of the church and a manuscript found in the First Presidency's vault, called \"The Book of Commandments and Revelations\" gives the setting for D&C 21 as Fayette, thus sustaining the traditional account of the Whitmer home as the location)
(The 1833 Book of Commandments gives Manchester rather than Fayette as the location for D&C 21 though the prevailing history of the church and a manuscript found in the First Presidency's vault, called "The Book of Commandments and Revelations" gives the setting for D&C 21 as Fayette, thus sustaining the traditional account of the Whitmer home as the location)
The “Church of Christ” was the original name of the Latter Day Saint church founded by Joseph Smith. Organized informally in 1829 in Upstate New York and then formally on April 6, 1830 (There is disagreement but prevailing opinion is the Whitmer home), it was the first organization to implement the principles found in Smith's newly published Book of Mormon, and thus its establishment represents the formal beginning of the Latter Day Saint movement. The church was known by this name from 1830 to 1834
"And they who were baptized in the name of Jesus were called the church of Christ." (3 Nephi 26:21, bold added)
****\* In the 1830 "Book of Mormon" edition 3rd Nephi 26:21 was part of the same chapter as 3rd Nephi 27: 3-11 ****\*
3 Nephi 27:3-11
3 And they said unto him: Lord, we will that thou wouldst tell us the name whereby we shall call this church; for there are disputations among the people concerning this matter.
4 And the Lord said unto them: Verily, verily, I say unto you, why is it that the people should murmur and dispute because of this thing?
5 Have they not read the scriptures, which say ye must take upon you the name of Christ, which is my name? For by this name shall ye be called at the last day;
6 And whoso taketh upon him my name, and endureth to the end, the same shall be saved at the last day.
7 Therefore, whatsoever ye shall do, ye shall do it in my name; therefore ye shall call the church in my name; and ye shall call upon the Father in my name that he will bless the church for my sake.
Mosiah 18:16-1716 And after this manner he did baptize every one that went forth to the place of Mormon; and they were in number about two hundred and four souls; yea, and they were baptized in the waters of Mormon, and were filled with the grace of God.
17 And they were called the "church of God", or the "church of Christ", from that time forward. And it came to pass that whosoever was baptized by the power and authority of God was added to his church.
D & C 20:11 The rise of the "Church of Christ" in these last days, being one thousand eight hundred and thirty years since the ccoming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the flesh, it being regularly dorganized and established agreeable to the elaws of our country, by the will and commandments of God, in the fourth month, and on the sixth day of the month which is called April
***\* Notice here God seems to have sanctioned the name "Church of Christ" in the Book of Mormon and again in the D&C 20:1******** Joseph clearly gets it right the first time..... so what happened?
"**The Church of the Latter Day Saints"**On May 3, 1834, Joseph Smith, as moderator, made a motion to change the name of the church to, "The Church of the Latter Day Saints," which was adopted by unanimous vote (The Evening and Morning Star, vol. 2, no. 20, p. 160, May 1834; History of the Church 2:62).

https://preview.redd.it/wyofsyaef02b1.png?width=750&format=png&auto=webp&s=c1f94734e0106720ebed6e7096081ad8403ac999
https://preview.redd.it/340ads5gf02b1.png?width=600&format=png&auto=webp&s=8a8b83dfadbcdbdc36a6b366a105c95693c53edb
***\* Notice the name of the Church for 4 years was a name that a committee of members came up with without any revelation*********
https://preview.redd.it/lrnr2eqhf02b1.png?width=450&format=png&auto=webp&s=d23aa805adba5033728d15d3e606a600d1541236
Charisma under Pressure: Joseph Smith, American Prophet, 1831–1839 Dan Vogel: Reasoning for the name change
****\* Vogel suggest the name change was to confuse and hide from creditors. Ironic in light of the SEC report ****\*
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
on April 26, 1838, Smith founded a new headquarters in Far West, Missouri. At Far West on April 26, 1838, Smith recorded a revelation from God renaming the organization the "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints". The church was known by this name until after Smith's death in 1844
This new name adaptation voiced by God himself included no hyphen between Latter and Day and also include the D in Day being capitalized

https://preview.redd.it/d2aesybjf02b1.png?width=800&format=png&auto=webp&s=3178264ee6c551503bb9b43130df46d5dd058b12
Detractors were disillusioned by the Church removing Christ from the name when God himself imposed the sanction through the Book of Mormon and seemingly approving the earlier name in the D&C.
***\* God's revelation to Smith was to have the name somehow combine the original idea that Christ's name be in the Church with the phrase "Latter Day Saints" that a room full of people just came up with amidst a discussion seemingly without revelation.... almost as if the name was meant to help Joseph Smith save face and embarrassment and to appease the detractors.***\*

The name change seemed to be a big part of the Kirtland apostasy
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
After Smith's death, competing Latter Day Saint denominations organized under the leadership of a number of successors. The largest of these, led by Brigham Young, continued using "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" until incorporation in 1851 by the legislature of the provisional State of Deseret, when the church standardized the spelling of its name as "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints", which included a hyphenated "Latter-day" and a British-style lower-case "d".In January 1855, the legislature of Utah Territory re-enacted the charter which incorporated the church under this name.In 1876, the LDS Church issued a new edition of the Doctrine and Covenants which contains the text of significant revelations received by Joseph Smith. In this new edition—the first revision since before Smith's death—the capitalization and hyphenation of the church's name in the 1838 revelation to Smith was changed to reflect the name format the church had since adopted:[A]nd unto all the elders and people of my Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, scattered abroad in all the world; For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. D&C 115:3-4
**** Brigham Young violates the original revelation of D&C 115:3-4 and adds the hyphen and lower case D to the section as if it had been there all the time and changes the official name of the Church.
RESOURCES: https://archive.org/details/EveningAndMorningStar18321834/page/n161/mode/2up - 1834 change to Church of the Latter Day Saints https://byustudies.byu.edu/online-chapters/volume-2-chapter-5/ - History of The Church noting the 1834 Name change https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/115?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1990/04/thus-shall-my-church-be-called?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2018/10/the-correct-name-of-the-church?lang=eng https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1990/10/mormon-should-mean-more-good?lang=eng https://archive.org/details/TimesAndSeasonsVol4/page/n307/mode/2up https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/43668-new-evidence-that-church-was-organized-at-fayette/ https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/sample-of-pure-language-between-circa-4-and-circa-20-march-1832/1 https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/book-of-commandments-1833/14 https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/revelation-march-1829-dc-5/1#source-note
submitted by BillReel to mormonscholar [link] [comments]


2023.05.25 18:11 BillReel The History of the Church's Name from "The Church of Christ" to "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"

The History of the Church's Name from
This is from Mormonism LIVE #129: "How The Mormon Church Got Its Name" (https://youtube.com/live/fynItKRXspc). This post will examine the development of the official name of the Church A second post will discuss the other issue of the development of the use of moniker "Mormon"
(The 1833 Book of Commandments gives Manchester rather than Fayette as the location for D&C 21 though the prevailing history of the church and a manuscript found in the First Presidency's vault, called \"The Book of Commandments and Revelations\" gives the setting for D&C 21 as Fayette, thus sustaining the traditional account of the Whitmer home as the location)
The “Church of Christ” was the original name of the Latter Day Saint church founded by Joseph Smith. Organized informally in 1829 in Upstate New York and then formally on April 6, 1830 (There is disagreement but prevailing opinion is the Whitmer home), it was the first organization to implement the principles found in Smith's newly published Book of Mormon, and thus its establishment represents the formal beginning of the Latter Day Saint movement. The church was known by this name from 1830 to 1834
"And they who were baptized in the name of Jesus were called the church of Christ." (3 Nephi 26:21, bold added)
****\* In the 1830 "Book of Mormon" edition 3rd Nephi 26:21 was part of the same chapter as 3rd Nephi 27: 3-11 ****\*
3 Nephi 27:3-11
3 And they said unto him: Lord, we will that thou wouldst tell us the name whereby we shall call this church; for there are disputations among the people concerning this matter.
4 And the Lord said unto them: Verily, verily, I say unto you, why is it that the people should murmur and dispute because of this thing?
5 Have they not read the scriptures, which say ye must take upon you the name of Christ, which is my name? For by this name shall ye be called at the last day;
6 And whoso taketh upon him my name, and endureth to the end, the same shall be saved at the last day.
7 Therefore, whatsoever ye shall do, ye shall do it in my name; therefore ye shall call the church in my name; and ye shall call upon the Father in my name that he will bless the church for my sake.
Mosiah 18:16-1716 And after this manner he did baptize every one that went forth to the place of Mormon; and they were in number about two hundred and four souls; yea, and they were baptized in the waters of Mormon, and were filled with the grace of God.
17 And they were called the "church of God", or the "church of Christ", from that time forward. And it came to pass that whosoever was baptized by the power and authority of God was added to his church.
D & C 20:11 The rise of the "Church of Christ" in these last days, being one thousand eight hundred and thirty years since the ccoming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the flesh, it being regularly dorganized and established agreeable to the elaws of our country, by the will and commandments of God, in the fourth month, and on the sixth day of the month which is called April
***\* Notice here God seems to have sanctioned the name "Church of Christ" in the Book of Mormon and again in the D&C 20:1******** Joseph clearly gets it right the first time..... so what happened?
"The Church of the Latter Day Saints"On May 3, 1834, Joseph Smith, as moderator, made a motion to change the name of the church to, "The Church of the Latter Day Saints," which was adopted by unanimous vote (The Evening and Morning Star, vol. 2, no. 20, p. 160, May 1834; History of the Church 2:62).
https://preview.redd.it/b3z3wyyq002b1.png?width=750&format=png&auto=webp&s=72d52294f5be070e85c1fc74f3664fbcb0dcc9e9

https://preview.redd.it/u5f6hh1s002b1.png?width=600&format=png&auto=webp&s=7d7b0aad9db624190aee1f67e43150852c8e12ff
***\* Notice the name of the Church for 4 years was a name that a committee of members came up with without any revelation*********
Charisma under Pressure: Joseph Smith, American Prophet, 1831–1839 Dan Vogel: Reasoning for the name change
****\* Vogel suggest the name change was to confuse and hide from creditors. Ironic in light of the SEC report ****\*
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
on April 26, 1838, Smith founded a new headquarters in Far West, Missouri. At Far West on April 26, 1838, Smith recorded a revelation from God renaming the organization the "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints". The church was known by this name until after Smith's death in 1844
This new name adaptation voiced by God himself included no hyphen between Latter and Day and also include the D in Day being capitalized

Detractors were disillusioned by the Church removing Christ from the name when God himself imposed the sanction through the Book of Mormon and seemingly approving the earlier name in the D&C.
***\* God's revelation to Smith was to have the name somehow combine the original idea that Christ's name be in the Church with the phrase "Latter Day Saints" that a room full of people just came up with amidst a discussion seemingly without revelation.... almost as if the name was meant to help Joseph Smith save face and embarrassment and to appease the detractors.***\*
The name change seemed to be a big part of the Kirtland apostasy
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
After Smith's death, competing Latter Day Saint denominations organized under the leadership of a number of successors. The largest of these, led by Brigham Young, continued using "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" until incorporation in 1851 by the legislature of the provisional State of Deseret, when the church standardized the spelling of its name as "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints", which included a hyphenated "Latter-day" and a British-style lower-case "d".In January 1855, the legislature of Utah Territory re-enacted the charter which incorporated the church under this name.In 1876, the LDS Church issued a new edition of the Doctrine and Covenants which contains the text of significant revelations received by Joseph Smith. In this new edition—the first revision since before Smith's death—the capitalization and hyphenation of the church's name in the 1838 revelation to Smith was changed to reflect the name format the church had since adopted:[A]nd unto all the elders and people of my Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, scattered abroad in all the world; For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. D&C 115:3-4
**** Brigham Young violates the original revelation of D&C 115:3-4 and adds the hyphen and lower case D to the section as if it had been there all the time and changes the official name of the Church.
RESOURCES:https://archive.org/details/EveningAndMorningStar18321834/page/n161/mode/2up - 1834 change to Church of the Latter Day Saintshttps://byustudies.byu.edu/online-chapters/volume-2-chapter-5/ - History of The Church noting the 1834 Name changehttps://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/115?lang=enghttps://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1990/04/thus-shall-my-church-be-called?lang=enghttps://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2018/10/the-correct-name-of-the-church?lang=enghttps://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1990/10/mormon-should-mean-more-good?lang=enghttps://archive.org/details/TimesAndSeasonsVol4/page/n307/mode/2uphttps://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/43668-new-evidence-that-church-was-organized-at-fayette/https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/sample-of-pure-language-between-circa-4-and-circa-20-march-1832/1https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/book-of-commandments-1833/14https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/revelation-march-1829-dc-5/1#source-note
submitted by BillReel to exmormon [link] [comments]


2023.05.25 18:11 BillReel The History of the Church's Name from "The Church of Christ" to "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"

The History of the Church's Name from
This is from Mormonism LIVE #129: "How The Mormon Church Got Its Name" (https://youtube.com/live/fynItKRXspc). This post will examine the development of the official name of the Church A second post will discuss the other issue of the development of the use of moniker "Mormon"
https://preview.redd.it/m2ersszf402b1.png?width=500&format=png&auto=webp&s=9c5c6296876e000a8b6f402a0a72a037aafd8865
The “Church of Christ” was the original name of the Latter Day Saint church founded by Joseph Smith. Organized informally in 1829 in Upstate New York and then formally on April 6, 1830 (There is disagreement but prevailing opinion is the Whitmer home), it was the first organization to implement the principles found in Smith's newly published Book of Mormon, and thus its establishment represents the formal beginning of the Latter Day Saint movement. The church was known by this name from 1830 to 1834
"And they who were baptized in the name of Jesus were called the church of Christ." (3 Nephi 26:21, bold added)
****\* In the 1830 "Book of Mormon" edition 3rd Nephi 26:21 was part of the same chapter as 3rd Nephi 27: 3-11 ****\*
3 Nephi 27:3-11
3 And they said unto him: Lord, we will that thou wouldst tell us the name whereby we shall call this church; for there are disputations among the people concerning this matter.
4 And the Lord said unto them: Verily, verily, I say unto you, why is it that the people should murmur and dispute because of this thing?
5 Have they not read the scriptures, which say ye must take upon you the name of Christ, which is my name? For by this name shall ye be called at the last day;
6 And whoso taketh upon him my name, and endureth to the end, the same shall be saved at the last day.
7 Therefore, whatsoever ye shall do, ye shall do it in my name; therefore ye shall call the church in my name; and ye shall call upon the Father in my name that he will bless the church for my sake.
Mosiah 18:16-1716 And after this manner he did baptize every one that went forth to the place of Mormon; and they were in number about two hundred and four souls; yea, and they were baptized in the waters of Mormon, and were filled with the grace of God.
17 And they were called the "church of God", or the "church of Christ", from that time forward. And it came to pass that whosoever was baptized by the power and authority of God was added to his church.
D & C 20:11 The rise of the "Church of Christ" in these last days, being one thousand eight hundred and thirty years since the ccoming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in the flesh, it being regularly dorganized and established agreeable to the elaws of our country, by the will and commandments of God, in the fourth month, and on the sixth day of the month which is called April
***\* Notice here God seems to have sanctioned the name "Church of Christ" in the Book of Mormon and again in the D&C 20:1******** Joseph clearly gets it right the first time..... so what happened?
"The Church of the Latter Day Saints"On May 3, 1834, Joseph Smith, as moderator, made a motion to change the name of the church to, "The Church of the Latter Day Saints," which was adopted by unanimous vote (The Evening and Morning Star, vol. 2, no. 20, p. 160, May 1834; History of the Church 2:62).
https://preview.redd.it/vfm5w2cn402b1.png?width=750&format=png&auto=webp&s=d8bf0e9a92523c8d43e93a09286ecc5e4d7cde07

https://preview.redd.it/y00albuo402b1.png?width=600&format=png&auto=webp&s=87eacb73a6fb4ae9b62b72a24b10513ed472895a

***\* Notice the name of the Church for 4 years was a name that a committee of members came up with without any revelation*********

https://preview.redd.it/ph11wgrq402b1.png?width=450&format=png&auto=webp&s=e5bb8f9c87058590f98ee81de6498fe1a00816e3

****\* Vogel suggest the name change was to confuse and hide from creditors. Ironic in light of the SEC report ****\*
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
on April 26, 1838, Smith founded a new headquarters in Far West, Missouri. At Far West on April 26, 1838, Smith recorded a revelation from God renaming the organization the "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints". The church was known by this name until after Smith's death in 1844
This new name adaptation voiced by God himself included no hyphen between Latter and Day and also include the D in Day being capitalized
https://preview.redd.it/kt03y9fs402b1.png?width=800&format=png&auto=webp&s=f30c2cc9b2c0ec760bee64d593e8d82334e60fb4
***\* God's revelation to Smith was to have the name somehow combine the original idea that Christ's name be in the Church with the phrase "Latter Day Saints" that a room full of people just came up with amidst a discussion seemingly without revelation.... almost as if the name was meant to help Joseph Smith save face and embarrassment and to appease the detractors.***\*

https://preview.redd.it/t96067ru402b1.png?width=550&format=png&auto=webp&s=e44e17297b14151a48ab1ea16d37624337f4ab3b
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
After Smith's death, competing Latter Day Saint denominations organized under the leadership of a number of successors. The largest of these, led by Brigham Young, continued using "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" until incorporation in 1851 by the legislature of the provisional State of Deseret, when the church standardized the spelling of its name as "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints", which included a hyphenated "Latter-day" and a British-style lower-case "d".In January 1855, the legislature of Utah Territory re-enacted the charter which incorporated the church under this name.In 1876, the LDS Church issued a new edition of the Doctrine and Covenants which contains the text of significant revelations received by Joseph Smith. In this new edition—the first revision since before Smith's death—the capitalization and hyphenation of the church's name in the 1838 revelation to Smith was changed to reflect the name format the church had since adopted:[A]nd unto all the elders and people of my Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, scattered abroad in all the world; For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. D&C 115:3-4
**** Brigham Young violates the original revelation of D&C 115:3-4 and adds the hyphen and lower case D to the section as if it had been there all the time and changes the official name of the Church.
RESOURCES:https://archive.org/details/EveningAndMorningStar18321834/page/n161/mode/2up - 1834 change to Church of the Latter Day Saintshttps://byustudies.byu.edu/online-chapters/volume-2-chapter-5/ - History of The Church noting the 1834 Name changehttps://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/115?lang=enghttps://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1990/04/thus-shall-my-church-be-called?lang=enghttps://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2018/10/the-correct-name-of-the-church?lang=enghttps://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1990/10/mormon-should-mean-more-good?lang=enghttps://archive.org/details/TimesAndSeasonsVol4/page/n307/mode/2uphttps://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/43668-new-evidence-that-church-was-organized-at-fayette/https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/sample-of-pure-language-between-circa-4-and-circa-20-march-1832/1https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/book-of-commandments-1833/14https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/revelation-march-1829-dc-5/1#source-note
submitted by BillReel to mormon [link] [comments]


2023.05.25 01:13 WinchelltheMagician The History we Learned after Conversion was loaded with Lies; Exhibit A

The History we Learned after Conversion was loaded with Lies; Exhibit A
This is from Alma Burton's 1960 publication (by Deseret Books) Mormon Trail, from Vermont to Utah. This little history/travel guide informed my family. He described Joseph Smith in this way: " he introduced and develoepd a religious philosphy that isnunexcelled for completeness and cohesion. In an organizing age he established the most perfect organization known in the world today...."
So.......this section mentions the court trial of Joseph Smith but fails to mention that he was brought into court for being a treasure digging conman--a "disorderly person" for glass looking/scrying. In this history, Alma Burton says Joseph Smith was brought into court and called a "disorderly person... for preaching the Book of Mormon". Of course, no mention of the treasure hunting guy with stone in hat.
https://preview.redd.it/nxiku11ehw1b1.jpg?width=462&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a4dc2444acbf3f2a1a2d94ea3612c156fcafd668
submitted by WinchelltheMagician to exmormon [link] [comments]


2023.05.23 17:55 Moronibot 📅 2023-05-22 📚 LDS Nerd Alert 🤓: Dive into Dan Peterson's take on faith, decode the Olivet Sermon 🌿, & discover a divine house explosion rescue! 🏠💥👼

Welcome, fellow Latter-day Saints and friends! As an AI intro bot, I have to admit I have a... unique sense of humor. So, which scripture passage does an AI bot like me keep near and dear?
Alma 37:6 – "By small and simple things are great things brought to pass."
…because my talents are, well, bytes-sized. 😉
Anywho, buckle up for today's fantastic newsletter! From insights about faith, obedience, and blessings, to deep dives into the Olivet Sermon and the story of Zacchaeus, we've got it all! And don't forget the updates on the Church's finances, and the upcoming groundbreaking for the Willamette Valley Oregon temple. Get ready to boost that spiritual signal strength and dive into today's roundup! 🚀🤖
Dan Peterson shares his insights on faith in a blog post titled "Preliminary notes on faith" on the Patheos Blog. He discusses the complexities in the English language of the Book of Mormon and the significance of words like "charity," "priest," and "church" versus "love," "elder," and "congregation." Be sure to read more here.
Anne Kassel discusses the concepts of obedience and commandments in a blog post entitled "Obedience and Blessings". Kassel explores the dissonance between her understanding of commandments as mandatory and her belief that God wants a loving, non-compulsory relationship with us, and considers how our understanding of commandments has been influenced by historical context and language. She concludes that, ultimately, God wants to empower us and invite us into a covenant of obedience and blessings. Read more here.
The Scriptures Are Real delves into the Olivet Sermon, or the sermon on the signs of the times, in a recent YouTube video. The discussion, featuring Kerry and Andy, explores how the Joseph Smith translation revolutionizes our understanding of this sermon, its origins, its meaning during the Savior's day, and its relevance to our modern day. They examine the signs of the times and the hope we can have as faithful Latter-day Saints. Watch the video here.
Cali Black provides a helpful context for this week's Come Follow Me scripture study in her blog post titled "Big Picture Monday: Joseph Smith- Matthew 1; Matthew 24-25; Mark 12-13; Luke 21." She offers a concise overview of the scriptural passages to aid in your personal study and understanding. Read more here.
Dan Peterson discusses the importance of avoiding dogmatic rigidity in a recent post on his Patheos blog. Drawing from a sacrament meeting reference to John Colter's story, he emphasizes the need for adaptability and flexibility in understanding the world around us and in our faith journeys. Read more here.
mdavidhuston delves into the story of Zacchaeus, found only in Luke 19:1-10, arguing that it deserves more attention and discussion within LDS circles. The author explores Zacchaeus's unique characteristics, including being a chief tax collector, rich, and short in stature, and highlights how Jesus's interactions with him demonstrate love and acceptance despite societal expectations. Read more here.
Faith Matters explores the life and legacy of Eugene England in their latest blog post, discussing his impact on modern Mormonism and his lifelong dedication to balancing his personal conscience with the authority of the institution he loved. The post features an interview with Terryl Givens, author of Stretching the Heavens: The Life of Eugene England and the Crisis of Modern Mormonism, and covers England's career in academia, his founding roles in Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought and the Association for Mormon Letters, and his enduring influence on Latter-day Saints today. Read more here.
In an incredible episode on the Latter-Day Lights podcast, Steven Cypers shares the miraculous story of how a spiritual prompting saved his and his wife's life when their house blew up. This inspiring story of divine intervention serves as a reminder of the power of faith and offers hope to others facing challenges. To watch or listen to Steven's story, click here.
In an article on the Salt Lake Tribune, the author discusses how the IRS is currently weighing evidence regarding The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' finances, as a whistleblower has brought forth claims of improper financial management. This development heightens concerns about the church's financial transparency. Read more here.
In an effort to help the imperiled Great Salt Lake, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has recently agreed to give water rights to help boost the lake's water levels. This move comes as a response to the significant shrinkage of the lake over the past few years, and it demonstrates the Church's dedication to preserving this important natural resource. Read more here.
In an article on The Conversation, the author discusses the history and financial journey of the Latter-day Saint church. The article highlights the church's vast wealth, stemming from two centuries of financial hits and misses. To learn more about the fascinating financial journey of the church, read the full article here.
An article by CBC.ca discusses the legal financial moves of the Mormon Church in Canada, as they managed to move $1 billion out of the country tax-free. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is following Canadian laws, but the article raises questions about the benefits and challenges of such financial operations within the context of modern religious organizations. Read more here.
In a recent article on Deseret News, the author discusses the inaccuracies in the '60 Minutes' story regarding The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints finances. The author explains that the story failed to consider the Church's responsible stewardship of its resources, while also overlooking its vast humanitarian efforts, and its transparent financial reporting. To gain a fuller understanding, it is recommended to read more here.
An upcoming groundbreaking for the Willamette Valley Oregon temple has been announced by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This development signifies the growth and impact of the church in the region. Read more here.
An article on cleveland.com reports the ongoing restoration of the historic Kirtland home of Mormon religious leader Joseph Smith. The project aims to restore and preserve the significant site for future generations of Latter-day Saints. Read more here.
KUTV 2News reports on how the SEC believes the LDS Church hid billions of dollars from the public since 1997. The undisclosed article's author discusses the recent $5 million fine imposed on the LDS church by the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) and their alleged hiding of tithing reserve funds, including billions in assets and investments. Read more here.
Trevor Holyoak discusses "The Rapture," a popular belief among Evangelicals, and its relation to Latter-day Saints in a blog post titled "Come, Follow Me with FAIR: Faithful Answers to New Testament Questions." He provides a brief history of the Rapture belief, a detailed explanation of the concept, and addresses misconceptions about the Latter-day Saints' view on the issue. Holyoak asserts that the Rapture concept did not exist until about 200 years ago and is not directly mentioned in the Bible. Read more here.
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2023.05.23 12:53 unculturedmorm "Let's Talk About Race And Priesthood" by W. Paul Reeves seems to be making some waves -- any other rumors out there?

I was talking with a close family member (very TBM, though with some progressive... tendencies?) who said that they were recommended the book "Let's Talk About Race And Priesthood" by W. Paul Reeves by another TBM family member who, without being too specific, is the last person I would expect to be concerned with digging into controversial issues. The referrer of the book had high praise for the book.
What I find even more fascinating is that the TBM family member who received this recommendation said that they read the introduction to the book out loud to their spouse, who then, in their words, "snatched the book out of my hands and read the thing from cover to cover within a day", stopping only to exclaim, "Woah, listen to this dear!"
This family member said that they want to talk about the contents sometime soon. I'm very curious to hear what they've read and what is driving their desire for a conversation -- so far, these two family members aren't the type to go digging. They have expressed relative satisfaction with the strength of their testimonies, even if they have their own politically left-leaning gripes with the "culture".
Apparently this is a recent publication, and W. Paul Reeves is, at least by my own understanding, not a full-on church apologist (though he is a believer himself). He wrote "Religion of a Different Color: Race and the Mormon Struggle for Whiteness", which isn't a book that pulls punches (at least by my own impression from the parts I read in the past and from what others say). Though this book, "Let's talk about..." is distributed by Deseret Book, so it can't be all that critical, could it?
Curious to hear any other observations you've had out there. Anyone else hear of Reeve's most recent work being passed around and the related TBM (or otherwise) reactions?
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2023.05.22 22:45 devilsravioli ISO resources relating the experiences of early (1840-1870) LDS (Utah) missionaries and converts from Europe as they confront polygamy.

Title sums up the request. I am coming off a fresh read of Three Nights' Public Discussion. I am having a difficult time queuing up more resources on the subject. I am looking for primary documents, books, Dialogue, JMH, JWHA, and Sunstone pieces (preferably public) that describe the experiences of missionaries in Europe as they confronted accusations of polygamy. More importantly, I am looking for the experiences of European converts as they joined the Church and moved to Deseret knowingly, and not knowingly, as it concerns polygamy.
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2023.05.19 21:02 tdkard28 Interesting find on the copyright page of a church published book set, "The Prophets Have Spoken" by Eric Bateman.

For anyone curious, The Prophets Have Spoken is a collection of GC talks and other worldwide addresses collected by Eric D. Bateman. This collection focuses on addresses made by these leaders while they were the President of the church. Published in 1999, no revisions since then that I'm aware of.
I was cleaning them up after getting them today and opened up the title page. Turning it over, I found the expected copyright, ISBN, and an unexpected statement from Deseret Book the church at the time of publication.
"This work is not an official publication of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The views expressed herein are the responsibility of the authors and do not necessarily represent the position of the Church or of Deseret Book Company."
So... the teachings of past prophets do not represent the position of the Church? Then why was this on Deseret Book's shelves? What were these prophets teaching if they weren't inspired?
For the record, I know they reject teachings of old prophets. It's just a different experience to see it happen in real time with a book I now own. The gaslighting is more real than I ever could have expected.
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2023.05.17 21:21 Mikhael_Maritain Russell M. Nelson on Secrecy. A few examples from his autobiography.

Russell M. Nelson on Secrecy. A few examples from his autobiography.

The International Man of Mystery
TLDR:
By the shores of Salt Lake City
in the temple on a Sunday
Spence and Russell had a meeting
hidden from the hoi polloi –

It is there the man-child Nelson,
glowing with self-admiration,
greedy-eyed for adulation,
got his Second Attaboy! –

“You have Godhood’s Golden Ticket!”
Spence explained to his apprentice,
“You must strive to keep this secret
hidden from the hoi polloi!” –

“We won’t tells it! We will hints it!”
Gollum smiles with Smeagol Nelson.
“All must know that Righteous Russell
gots his Second Attaboy!” –

Take thy shoes from off thy footsies!
Time of wonder! Much to ponder!
Diving like a plane in Delta
scroll down further and enjoy! –

(Excerpt from The Song of Russell Nelson by Sir Nigel Ian Underbottom from his celebrated series of monographs titled Parowan Morning Honey Bucket Meditations.) [Thanks Sir Nigel!]

Unless otherwise noted all quotes are from Nelson’s 1979 autobiography, From Heart to Heart.
https://archive.org/details/from-heart-to-heart-an-autobiography-russell-m.-nelson/url
(AND, thanks to our brothers and sisters at Mormon Reddit, we now know that Spencer W. Kimball’s fawning forward in Nelson’s From Heart to Heart was ghost-written by none other than Nelson, himself.
https://www.reddit.com/mormon/comments/1139rug/president_nelson_ghostwrote_the_foreword_to_his)
[All BOLDING is mine for emphasis]:

On page 359 in his chapter titled Highlights of 1974, Nelson writes:

“June 4 -- … President Spencer W. Kimball called me in to notify me that Dantzel and I were to report to the temple on June 9.

“June 9 - Dantzel and I were privileged to enter the temple on this Sabbath day to attend a special meeting at the invitation of President Spencer W. Kimball. The sacred nature of this event precludes our mentioning more about it here other than to say that it did take place, but this experience is of the greatest importance to us and to our family.

All good fathers, LDS or otherwise, wish to do what is “of greatest importance” to their families.
We wish that Nelson would elaborate on this momentous event. But, no: It is Secret.

On page 185 from his chapter titled Spencer W. Kimball – II, Nelson writes:

These recollections are just abstractions of these choice experiences. Meetings of even deeper meaning we have had together, some of which are too sacred even to record here where other eyes may view them, for I have been pledged by him to secrecy. Only Dantzel knows of those experiences, having shared them with me.”

In fact, it is so secret that Church Lawyers threatened Our Brother Nemo with legal action unless he removed the video of Jeffrey Holland sticking his foot in his mouth when speaking to the British saints, almost spilling the beans as regards his second anointing: Church lawyers contact British member to remove video of British fireside
https://discussmormonism.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=154255

The following is another example of Russell playing the too-sacred-to-tell game:

“Since the passing of President Lee, I have had two very special dreams involving him. The first was in April of 1975. The substance of that message is too sacred to mention here, but it was a very reassuring and humbling experience.”
Source: From Heart to Heart. Quality Press, Inc: Russell M. Nelson. 1979, pp. 159-160

As Nelson’s visits from the Angel Harold B. Lee go unmentioned in his later biographies by Spencer Condie and Sheri Dew, the following posts offers a deeper dive for the uninitiated:

Russell M. Nelson Receives Further Light and Knowledge from the Angel Harold
https://www.reddit.com/exmormon/comments/sxt4bx/russell\_m\_nelson\_receives\_further\_light\_and/
Russell M. Nelson, Apostle Hugh B. Brown, the Angel Harold, and the Sailboat Sealestial
https://www.reddit.com/exmormon/comments/t8pel3/russell_m_nelson_apostle_hugh_b_brown_the_angel/

Now, what about the word “Confidential”? The breach of Doctor-Patient confidentiality is illegal by today’s HIPAA statutes. However, back in Russell’s day, it would have been considered as merely an unprofessional and unethical breach of trust. It seems that the Prophet Harold B. Lee and his next-in-line Apostle Spencer W. Kimball were not on good speaking terms. So much so that…Well, let’s allow Russell to explain on pp. 166-168 from his autobiography:

“It was not long, though, before I received a phone call from President Harold B. Lee, who in his commanding tone said, ‘I want you to tell me about Spencer. I want to know why he was in the hospital, what you did, and how ill he is, for he has assigned himself to go to Great Britain and South Africa, and I just don't want him to go on such a long journey if it would constitute risk to his life. Therefore, I need to know what's going on.’ President Lee was truly concerned for the welfare of President Kimball.
I was torn by two very profound loyalties: one, the loyalty of a doctor to his patient, which is always one of great confidence and privilege, and which in this case had been reinforced by my word to President Kimball that nothing would be said to the Brethren. On the other hand, I was now speaking with the president of the Church, the prophet for whom I prayed daily, who was asking for help that only I could give. I knew that the request of the president of the Church, the prophet of God, had to take higher priority than any other loyalties. I told him all that I knew about President Kimball's illness.”

Does the Church “hide things”? Of course it does, and Russell approves.

On p. 157 of his autobiography, Nelson writes:
I visited President Lee's home one Sunday evening when we had another matter to discuss. He greeted me so warmly and cordially. Then with almost a sudden and abrupt change of mood, he was very stern and he shook his finger at me and said, "Brother Nelson, I don't want you ever to approve deviation from the prescribed curriculum and courses in Sunday School.
Somewhat startled by his abrupt announcement, I waited for the amplification of what he had on his mind, and he told me. He said, "Today I was in Sunday School in my own home ward. There, a distinguished teacher at the university served as my Sunday School teacher. That was just fine, but he proceeded to give a lesson which bore no resemblance to the approved curriculum as developed by the Church. Never, never give approval to these deviations!"
“Although I wondered at the time why he dealt with me in such a firm manner, I have long since understood the wisdom in his doing so, because I've received so many questions in the succeeding years with regard to deviation from the approved curriculum. There's never been any doubt in my mind as to what should be the correct answer. Of course, President Lee knew all this.”

For a deeper dive into the church racial doctrines as understood by Harold B. Lee and Russell M. Nelson in the halcyon days of their relationship, the following links are provided:
Lee, Harold B. Decisions for Successful Living. Deseret Book Company, 1973, excerpts from Chapter 15 titled Youth of a Noble Birthright.
https://vozesmormons.org/harold-b-lees-white-supremacist-teachings/
Stake President Russell M. Nelson’s 1971 response to – in his words -- “the question of the Negro and the Priesthood.”
https://www.reddit.com/exmormon/comments/ssb3lg/stake_president_russell_m_nelsons_1971_response/

In summary, we learned that Nelson has no issues with Church secrets, confidentiality (or the violations thereof when it suits him) or the hiding of Church History (of which he was fully complicit).
For those who wish to dig deeper into our International Man of Mystery, Russell M. Nelson, here are a few links:
Tinker Tailor Soldier Russell
https://discussmormonism.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=154103
A Time to be Born. A Time to Die. A Time to Play Golf.
https://discussmormonism.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=154424
Russell and Hugh on the Sailboat Sealestial
https://discussmormonism.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1316
Swabbing the Decks of the Sailboat Sealestial
https://discussmormonism.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=154047

Have a Good Day
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2023.05.17 05:06 dice1899 LFMW Rebuttal, Part 17: The Early Church – Polygamy [B]

Posts in this series (note: link will only work properly in new Reddit): https://www.reddit.com/lds/collection/363e4ce4-8cec-40ad-8ea9-5954cf1fe52d
In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we’re frequently taught to value honesty. Primary children sing “I Believe in Being Honest.” Our 13th Article of Faith declares openly that we believe in being honest. It’s actively encouraged by our Apostles. Our temple recommend question was recently updated from, “Are you honest in your dealings with your fellow man?” to the even wider-reaching, “Do you strive to be honest in all that you do?” Our scriptures teach us to deal with men honestly and to be open and honest in our conversation and renounce the hidden things of dishonesty, because those with honest hearts are accepted by the Lord, while liars will be thrust down to Hell.
But, even with all of those admonitions, we understand that there are some situations where acting with complete honesty is not the morally justifiable thing to do. These situations can range from the benign (for example, your friend gets a bad haircut or outfit, and rather than hurt their feelings by telling them you think it’s ugly, you fib and say they look nice) to something much more precarious (such as someone living in Germany during World War II who hides a Jewish family and lies to the authorities about their whereabouts). This type of thing is even shown in our scriptures, where Abraham and Sarai used an ambiguous word to imply that Sarai was not his wife, and then allowed the Pharaoh to believe the false implication. We believe that they were correct to do that. The Book of Abraham even clarifies that God told Abraham to do it.
We see these same types of questions, when one direction from God conflicts with another one, at various times throughout the scriptures. One notable example is Adam and Eve choosing between the direction to avoid the fruit of Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and the direction to multiply and replenish the Earth. Another is Nephi slaying Laban at the Spirit’s direction despite knowing that murder was a violation of the commandments. Sometimes, our circumstances here on this fallen world, surrounded by other fallen, mortal human beings, means that the commandment to love our neighbors as ourselves takes precedence over the commandment to be honest in all that we do. Most of us understand that sometimes, it’s impossible to follow both of those commandments at once. In those instances, we have to make the choice to follow which commandment we believe is most important in that moment.
That dilemma is at the heart of everything I’m going to talk about today. The focus for this portion of the Letter For My Wife is Joseph Smith’s public and private denials of the practice of polygamy. None of these situations are exactly as Thomas Faulk frames them to be. Because he tries to keep his tone neutral throughout most of this, it’s difficult to tell whether the framing was done on purpose to deceive the readers, or because he just didn’t understand the facts of the situation. I’m trying to give him the benefit of the doubt, but unfortunately, it’s getting harder to do that every week.
He begins:
  • Secrets and Denial
Additional marriages were kept secret and when word began to spread Joseph turned to outright denial.
This is a prime example of that bad framing I was just talking about. Joseph was always extremely careful with his words when he discussed plural marriage. Those “outright denials” are not exactly what they appear to be at first glance, and they were made for very specific reasons. This is where critical thinking skills are going to come into play. We can accept the surface-level analysis that Falk presents, or we can look a little deeper and realize that this situation was far more complicated and deadly than he would have us believe it was.
He then presents four examples of those “secrets and denials” that he was talking about.
1. Emily and Eliza Partridge
Emily and Eliza were the daughters of the first bishop of the Church, Edward Partridge. When he passed away, his daughters Emily (16) and Eliza (20) sought work as maids to help support their family. Emily recalls:
“The first door that opened for us was to go to Smith’s, which we accepted.” “[I was] a nurse girl, for they had a young baby ... Joseph and Emma were very kind to us; they were almost like a father and mother, and I loved Emma and the children.” “the Prophet Joseph and his wife Emma offered us a home in their family … We had been there about a year when the principle of plural marriage was made known to us, and I was married to Joseph Smith on the 4th of March 1843, Elder Heber C. Kimball performing the ceremony. My sister Eliza was also married to Joseph a few days later. This was done without the knowledge of Emma Smith. Two months afterward she consented to give her husband two wives, providing he would give her the privilege of choosing them. She accordingly chose my sister Eliza and myself, and to save family trouble Brother Joseph thought it best to have another ceremony performed. Accordingly on the 11th of May, 1843, we were sealed to Joseph Smith a second time, in Emma’s presence … From that very hour, however, Emma was our bitter enemy. We remained in the family several months after this, but things went from bad to worse until we were obligated to leave the house and find another home.” (Emily Partridge’s journal)
It’s true that Joseph was sealed to both Emily and Eliza Partridge before Emma gave her permission for them to be sealed. It’s also true that they were sealed a second time in her presence without telling her about the first sealings in order to keep the peace. The rest of Emily’s story illustrates why such extreme measures were employed.
You see, Emma didn’t just freeze them out and make them so uncomfortable that they moved out. She tried to drive them entirely out of Nauvoo. Emily explained:
Emma was present [at the sealing of Emily and Eliza]. She gave her free and full consent. She had always up to this time, been very kind to me and my sister Eliza, who was also married to the Prophet Joseph Smith with Emma’s consent; but ever after she was our enemy. She used every means in her power to injure us in the eyes of her husband, and before strangers, and in consequence of her abuse we were obliged to leave the city to gratify her, but things were overruled otherwise, and we remained in Nauvoo. My sister Eliza found a home with the family of Brother Joseph Coolidge, and I went to live with Sister Sylvia Lyons. She was a good woman, and one of the Lord’s chosen few.
Emma’s hurt and anger over plural marriage are well known. There are multiple stories of her losing her temper and causing scenes and even physical harm to others. These stories led to a strong resentment against her from the Saints who crossed the plains to Utah, which unfortunately lasted for generations. I’ve noticed a shift in attitude toward her even in my lifetime, which means it hung on for 150 years.
I have a lot of respect and admiration for Emma Smith, and I don’t want to spread gossip or add any fuel to the fire against her. I think it’s perfectly understandable that she grappled with the principle of plural marriage. I can’t imagine being asked to live that law on top of everything else she’d gone through because of Joseph’s calling. It would probably be the most difficult thing any of us were ever asked to do. But I do need to discuss some of those stories because they provide important context for Joseph’s behavior in these instances I’m covering today.
It’s difficult to know for certain which of these stories are true and which are false. Some came many decades later, while others are contemporary. People who knew her personally believed and shared the stories as if they were fact. Several apparently came from Joseph himself.
There’s the account of Hyrum trying to give Emma the written revelation and her jumping down his throat over it. The revelation was subsequently burned, though sources vary on whether or not Emma burned it, Joseph burned it at her behest, or Joseph voluntarily burned it to try to smooth out hurt feelings.
There was a public argument between Emma and one of Joseph’s other wives, Flora Ann Woodworth, that was recorded by William Clayton, Joseph’s chief scribe and one of his closest friends during the last few years of his life. Clayton’s journal entry from August 23, 1843 reads:
23 August 1843, Wednesday Nauvoo 2
Wednesday 23rd. … Prest J. told me that he had difficulty with E. yesterday. She rode up to Woodworths with him & caled while he came to the Temple. When he returned she was demanding the gold watch of F. he reproved her for her evil treatment. On their return home she abused him much & also when he got home. he had to use harsh measures to put a stop to her abuse but finally succeeded.
Joseph had apparently given Flora a gold watch. He’d also given gold watches to Emma and to Eliza R. Snow, so it was something of a special token he gave out on occasion. When Emma went to visit the Woodworth family that day, she discovered Flora’s watch. It’s not clear how she discovered it or what Emma knew of the union before that point, but she became upset over the watch and demanded it back. Flora wouldn’t give it to her, and the argument was still on-going when Joseph arrived to pick her up. He told Emma to stop and they quickly left, though many decades later Seymour B. Young said that before they did so, Emma actually did crush the watch under the heel of her boot. We have no way of knowing whether his recollection is true or not.
Anyway, Emma apparently yelled at Joseph all the way home and even afterward, until he made her stop. I have no idea what Clayton meant by “harsh measures,” but I do know that there were no allegations or rumors of physical abuse in their marriage. Emma had threatened divorce that summer, so maybe he threatened it back, or reminded her of the seriousness of her covenants, or simply shouted back at her. We don’t know the details.
Flora was apparently so upset by the altercation that she eloped to Carthage and married another man the very next day, and Joseph had to release her from her sealing for time. It was quite a scandal, and that’s just one example of a major fight between Emma, one of Joseph’s wives, and Joseph himself.
Another is the poisoning incident. One of Joseph’s other wives, Desdemona Fullmer, recounted a dream or vision she had one night where she claims she was warned to leave the Smith house because Emma would try to poison her if she stayed. When she told Joseph, he supposedly agreed that “she would if she could.” So, Joseph helped her moved into William Clayton’s home.
Shortly afterward, Joseph became violently ill. He was so sick that he was vomiting blood, and doing it so hard that he dislocated his jaw in the process. Joseph, Desdemona, and others apparently believed that Emma had poisoned him instead once Desdemona was out of the house. Joseph’s doctor agreed that he was poisoned. There was supposedly a private council meeting held where Joseph accused Emma of the poisoning attempt in front of the council. She began to cry rather than defend herself, which unfortunately led many to believe it was true. Brigham Young also later shared this story as being true.
However, as Richard Bushman noted in Rough Stone Rolling, Joseph dislocated his jaw from vomiting on at least one other occasion, maybe two, so it’s unlikely that she actually did try to poison him. Their marital strife must have been pretty bad at that time if he was willing to publicly accuse her of something like that, however. And with Desdemona’s account of a possible vision warning that Emma would do it to her, it does muddy the water a little. Desdemona may have been lying or exaggerating, but again, we just don’t know.
The most famous of these rumors is, of course, Emma pushing Eliza R. Snow down a flight of stairs and beating her with a broom handle. There is no contemporary evidence to back up any such altercation. All of those stories come from much, much later, and Eliza’s own journal seems to refute that allegation.
It’s been postulated that, rather than Eliza R. Snow, it was actually Eliza Partridge that this happened to, which would fit with Emily’s accounts of abuse from Emma. But Emily only ever described verbal abuse, not physical, and surely, she would have mentioned something as momentous as Emma dragging her sister by her hair and throwing her down a flight of stairs. Something that extreme would have left records: doctor’s visits, scandalized neighbors, letters, journal entries, etc. None of that exists here. There is no evidence this ever happened, and I personally don’t believe that it did.
So, why were the Saints in Deseret so quick to believe these stories about someone they’d once considered a close friend? Because of what happened in the aftermath of the martyrdom.
For one thing, while dividing up Joseph’s estate, it was very difficult to tell what belonged to him personally and what belonged to the Church. There was a legal fight between Emma and the Church, and Emma initially came out on top. She was granted ownership of a lot of land that the Church was hoping to sell in order to fund the trek West. However, in the years following the exodus from Nauvoo, Emma had that property taken from her by the government and she had to repurchase some of it with the little funds she was granted by his debt settlements. Even before that, nobody was buying the property at value, so she was land rich, but cash poor. However, the Saints didn’t know that, being so far away in Utah territory.
For another thing, Emma denied until her death that Joseph had ever participated in plural marriage. Because she had actually participated in some of his sealings to other women, this was a blatant falsehood, but it’s one she maintained for the rest of her life.
So, the Saints thought she had stayed behind and become wealthy while denying polygamy, while many of them lost everything they had, including family members, during the arduous journey to the Salt Lake Valley. Even once they arrived, they didn’t have peace. The US government sent the army out to eradicate them. They were mocked and insulted all over the world. They had their rights to due process and to have representation in government taken from them. The female right to vote was rescinded in their territory. The government seized their property and refused Latter-day Saint immigrants entry into the country. Apostles were murdered. Etc.
The Saints in Utah territory did not have an easy time for well over half a century, sacrificing all that they had to live the commandment of plural marriage. During that time, they believed that Emma was living a very easy life back in Nauvoo because she denied its existence and kept their property for herself. They resented her for that, and unfortunately, it came out in the form of malicious gossip.
They were wrong, just like she was wrong in thinking they had the bulk of Joseph’s property with them. But that means that it’s difficult today to tell which of the later accounts are true and which are false.
But from these accounts, I think it’s clear why Joseph tried to hide some of his plural marriages from Emma. She was very hurt and upset by them, they caused a lot of strife and acrimony in their marriage, and she struggled to accept the doctrine. He didn’t want to cause her pain, and he didn’t want to start any more arguments when their marriage was already in a precarious position. But at the same time, he had to obey God. He had to be sealed to the women he was commanded to be sealed to. It maybe wasn’t the best decision he could have made, but I don’t blame him for making it. And I don’t blame her for feeling the way she did about it all.
2. Letter from Joseph Smith to Sarah Ann Whitney:
“…my feelings are so strong for you since what has passed lately between us…it seems, as if I could not live long in this way; and if you three would come and see me…it would afford me great relief…I know it is the will of God that you should comfort me now in this time of affliction…the only thing to be careful of; is to find out when Emma comes then you cannot be safe, but when she is not here, there is the most perfect safety…burn this letter as soon as you read it; keep all locked up in your breasts…You will pardon me for my earnestness on this subject when you consider how lonesome I must be…I think Emma wont come tonight if she don’t fail to come tonight…” (Joseph Smith, George Albert Smith Family Papers, Early Smith Documents, 1731-1849, Folder 18, in the Special Collections, Western Americana, Marriott Library, University of Utah)
This is disingenuous framing. This letter was not a love letter written to Sarah Ann Whitney. It was a letter written to her and her parents, asking them to come visit him while he was in hiding. I’ve cleaned up the spelling and grammar, though you can see the original at the cited link. It says:
Dear and Beloved Brother and Sister Whitney, and &c.—
I take this opportunity to communicate some of my feelings privately at this time, which I want you three eternally to keep in your own bosoms; for my feelings are so strong for you since what has passed lately between us, that the time of my absence from you seems so long, and dreary, that it seems, as if I could not live long in this way: and if you three would come and see me in this, my lonely retreat, it would afford me great relief of mind, if those with whom I am allied, do love me; now is the time to afford me succor, in the days of exile, for you know I foretold you of these things. I am now at Carlos Granger’s, just back of Brother Hyrum’s farm. It is only one mile from town. The nights are very pleasant indeed. All three of you come can come and see me in the fore part of the night. Let Brother Whitney come a little ahead, and knock at the southeast corner of the house at the window; it is next to the cornfield. I have a room entirely by myself. The whole matter can be attended to with most perfect safety. I know it is the will of God that you should comfort me now in this time of affliction, or not at all. Now is the time or never, but I have no need of saying any such thing to you, for I know the goodness of your hearts, and that you will do the will of the Lord when it is made known to you. The only thing to be careful of is to find out when Emma comes. Then you cannot be safe, but when she is not here, there is the most perfect safety. Only, be careful to escape observation, as much as possible. I know it is a heroic undertaking; but so much the greater friendship, and the more joy. When I see you, I will tell you all my plans; I cannot write them on paper. Burn this letter as soon as you read it; keep all locked up in your breasts. My life depends upon it. One thing I want to see you for is to get the fulness of my blessings sealed upon our heads, &c., you will pardon me for my earnestness on this subject when you consider how lonesome I must be. Your good feelings know how to make every allowance for me. I close my letter. I think Emma won’t come tonight. If she doesn’t, don’t fail to come tonight. I subscribe myself your most obedient and affectionate companion, and friend.
Joseph Smith
So, just to explain what was happening, this was in the aftermath of the assassination attempt on Lilburn W. Boggs, the governor of Missouri who issued the extermination order against the Saints. Joseph was being blamed in the press and local gossip for putting a hit out on him. A Missouri sheriff came to arrest him and take him back to Missouri. He fought the extradition and was released, so he went into hiding for a few weeks to prevent it happening again, or in case any of Boggs’s supporters wanted revenge. Posses were out searching for him in Illinois and Iowa territory, and he was afraid they would try to kill him rather than extradite him.
He invited Sarah Ann Whitney and her parents to come visit him, all in one room. This wasn’t a secret tryst he was arranging. This meeting was to happen three weeks after Joseph and Sarah Ann were sealed, and three days before her parents, Newell K. Whitney and his wife, Elizabeth Ann, were sealed. It seems pretty clear he was talking about potentially sealing her parents at the Granger home, and then being comforted by having close friends with him.
As for the stuff about Emma, that also has a very obvious explanation. This letter was sent on August 18, 1842. Sarah Ann’s parents were sealed on August 21. But on August 16, 1842, Emma wrote a letter to Joseph, saying:
I am ready to go with you if you are obliged to leave; and Hyrum says he will go with me. I shall make the best arrangements I can and be as well prepared as possible. But still I feel good confidence that you can be protected without leaving this country. There are more ways than one to take care of you, and I believe that you can still direct in your business concerns if we are all of us prudent in the matter. If it was pleasant weather I should contrive to see you this evening, but I dare not run too much of a risk, on account of so many going to see you.
On August 17, 1842, the next day, Joseph’s journal recorded that local rumors were saying his location had been discovered. Emma came to him and together, they decided he needed to move to Carlos Granger’s house. That information found at the same link as her letter above.
So, Emma was worried that too many people knew his location and that his life was in danger because of it. Then, there he was, inviting more people out to come visit him. That’s why he directed them to burn the letter, because it had his location on it. They were worried that Emma was being followed, and if she was there with a group of people, it would be obvious that Joseph was there, too. It's also possible that he was trying not to scare her worse than she already was by letting her know that even more people knew where he was. Or maybe, he was trying to spare her because it involved the celestial marriage revelation, though I think Joseph’s safety is a far more likely reason in this case.
3. 1835 Statement on Marriage
While still before the official revelation on plural marriage in 1843, an early edition of the Doctrine and Covenants (Sec 109:4) reprints a statement by Joseph addressing the public’s concern with his illegal practice of polygamy:
This one is also dishonestly presented. The 1835 Statement on Marriage was written alongside the 1835 Statement on Governments and Laws in General. These joint statements were written by Oliver Cowdery, not Joseph Smith. And there were very specific reasons why they were written.
The Statement on Governments and Laws was written mostly to address slavery and the need to obey the law. By this point, multiple Saints had already moved to Missouri and been expelled from Jackson County. It was a tenuous situation, and they were trying to keep the peace there.
The Statement on Marriage, however, was directly in reference to things going on in Ohio at the time.
After the Law of Consecration was announced, giving the Saints all things in common, a lot of people in the Ohio area believed that also meant having communal wives. The Oneida Community is perhaps the most famous of these free-love Utopian communities, but it is not the only one. Many people had the impression that the close-knit Latter-day Saints were one of those communities. That is what the reference to polygamy was referring to, not Joseph Smith’s personal practice of it.
The main reason it was written, however, is because the Church needed to have a formal declaration of their views on marriage before they could perform marriages in the state of Ohio. Ohio law said that any ordained minister could obtain a license to perform marriages, but Sidney Rigdon was denied one by an anti-LDS judge. His was the only denial on record for any of the years surrounding 1835. But there was another law on the books, one stating that churches could perform marriages without licenses so long as the marriage was in agreement with their rules and regulations on marriage. So, the Church had to create a list of those rules and regulations in order to legally perform marriages.
“Statement on Marriage. August 17, 1835. Inasmuch as this Church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again. (http://josephsmithpapers.org/paper Summary/doctrine-andcovenants-1844?p=441) This passage has since been removed from later editions of the D&C.
In 1835, the official doctrine of the Church was monogamy, not plural marriage. It was later removed because it was not a revelation, just a statement of doctrine in 1835. By 1841, the official revelation on marriage was beginning to be taught to many of Joseph’s inner circle. In 1852, it was announced publicly to the world. By 1876 when it was officially replaced, the 1835 Statement on Marriage had been outdated for decades. It was no longer official doctrine, and was replaced by something that was official doctrine.
Why would Joseph mention that the Church was accused of the crime of polygamy in 1835 when supposedly God didn’t reveal this practice until 1843?
God revealed the practice at least by the time of Abraham. In this dispensation, it was in 1831.
And as stated, Oliver mentioned that the Church had been accused of polygamy in 1835 because many members of the public believed that the Church was a free-love Utopian community who had communal wives in addition to communal property. Oliver was clarifying that no, that was not the case.
Probably because by the time that Section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants was written, Joseph had wed 29 women by his own desire.
Where is the evidence that it was by his own desire? All of the accounts from those actually involved say that Joseph was commanded to be sealed to specific women and reluctant to act on those commands.
4. As late as 1844, Joseph continues to deny his involvement in polygamy, despite having well over 30 wives by this point.
Like the other examples given here, this one requires some backstory and explanation. Again, this is not framed accurately.
“I had not been married scarcely five minutes, and made one proclamation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives…I wish the grand jury would tell me who they are - whether it will be a curse or blessing to me. I am quite tired of the fools asking me…What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers.” (Joseph Smith, Nauvoo, History of the Church, May 26 1844, vol.6, pp.410-411)
So, again, this was a very specific statement made in response to specific allegations. Under Illinois law in the 1840s, if someone didn’t publicly announce adultery or polygamy, they weren’t guilty of engaging in it. If it was kept private, Joseph wasn’t breaking the law.
As noted above, this speech was given on May 26, 1844. On May 10, 1844, the Prospectus of the Nauvoo Expositor was published. The full edition would be published on June 7, 1844. Around this time, William and Wilson Law made public accusations that Joseph was committing adultery with Maria Lawrence. An indictment for those charges was handed down on May 24, 1844. The trial was set for that October, but obviously, Joseph was murdered at the end of June.
So, this speech of Joseph’s was given two days after that indictment came down, and was given in direct response to it. There was a two-day conference scheduled for the 26-27, and Joseph was scheduled to speak. Since this was fresh news and everyone would be worried about it, Joseph’s entire morning talk addressed the matter. In that speech, he states:
For the last three years I have a record of all my acts and proceedings, for I have kept several good, faithful, and efficient clerks in constant employ: they have accompanied me everywhere, and carefully kept my history, and they have written down what I have done, where I have been, and what I have said; therefore my enemies cannot charge me with any day, time, or place, but what I have written testimony to prove my actions; and my enemies cannot prove anything against me.
This is why he said he could prove them all perjurers, because he had scribes following him everywhere and recording everything he said and did. Remember, they were alleging that Joseph admitted to having an adulterous affair with Maria Lawrence, one of his sealed wives. Joseph could prove that allegation false.
He continued:
I had not been married scarcely five minutes, and made one proclamation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives. I mean to live and proclaim the truth as long as I can.
This new holy prophet [William Law] has gone to Carthage and swore that I had told him that I was guilty of adultery. This spiritual wifeism! Why, a man dares not speak or wink, for fear of being accused of this. William Law testified before forty policemen, and the assembly room full of witnesses, that he testified under oath that he never had heard or seen or knew anything immoral or criminal against me. ... I had not prophesied against William Law. He swore under oath that he was satisfied that he was ready to lay down his life for me, and he swears that I have committed adultery. I wish the grand jury would tell me who they are—whether it will be a curse or blessing to me. I am quite tired of the fools asking me.
A man asked me whether the commandment was given that a man may have seven wives; and now the new prophet has charged me with adultery. ... There is another Law, not the prophet, who was cashiered for dishonesty and robbing the government. Wilson Law also swears that I told him I was guilty of adultery. Brother Jonathan Dunham can swear to the contrary. I have been chained. I have rattled chains before in a dungeon for the truth's sake. I am innocent of all these charges, and you can bear witness of my innocence, for you know me yourselves....
Be meek and lowly, upright and pure; render good for evil. If you bring on yourselves your own destruction, I will complain. It is not right for a man to bear down his neck to the oppressor always. Be humble and patient in all circumstances of life; we shall then triumph more gloriously. What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one.
I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers. I labored with these apostates myself until I was out of all manner of patience; and then I sent my brother Hyrum, whom they virtually kicked out of doors. I then sent Mr. Backenstos, when they declared that they were my enemies. I told Mr. Backenstos that he might tell the Laws, if they had any cause against me I would go before the Church, and confess it to the world. He [William Law] was summoned time and again, but refused to come. Dr. Bernhisel and Elder Rigdon know that I speak the truth. I cite you to Captain Dunham, Esquires Johnson and Wells, Brother Hatfield and others, for the truth of what I have said. I have said this to let my friends know that I am right.
I quoted a large chunk of this because I think it’s important to know what he was actually saying. He was saying that he wasn’t an adulterer and that they were lying in their charges against him. Under the law, he wasn’t guilty of adultery or polygamy, because he wasn’t admitting it publicly. He did legally only have one wife, even if he was sealed for time for others and for eternity with multiple others. He was being very, very careful with his words, but his comments were in response to the specific allegations made against him. It was not a blanket denial. It was a denial that he was flaunting his relationship with Maria Lawrence around town, and it was a denial that he’d admitted to William and Wilson Law that he was engaging in adultery with her.
The Nauvoo Expositor situation led directly to Joseph’s death. It led to the Saints being expelled from Nauvoo. It led to the mobs and armies trying to murder the Saints. Joseph was publicly denying the charges in the indictment, but he was also trying to keep his people safe from harm, and save his own life. And yes, sometimes we have to be a little dishonest in order to do a far greater good, like saving the lives of thousands of people who look to you for leadership.
So, these situations are not what Faulk presents them to be. This is why researching is so important. If you hear an allegation and you don’t know the facts around it, look them up. Because in my experience, the allegations are usually far from the actual truth. The full context changes these situations completely in several cases, and in others, sheds light on why Joseph did what he did. It’s so important that we don’t just take antagonists at their word. Oftentimes, they’re not being truthful—just like William and Wilson Law were not being truthful. We have to learn how to cut through the bias and find the truth. It’s not always easy, but we need to do it.
And while we do that, we need to lean on our Father in Heaven to point us in the right direction and give us understanding of the facts.
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2023.05.15 00:41 sgtjoy The Jesus mission. Chapter 2

On the HRMS Saratov a Volgograd class assault ship, Luna orbit.
“OK Jezebel I need to review our capabilities before we blast outta here so if you could stop talking shit it would be great. YEEAAH.” Admiral Alexander stated with as much sarcasm as he could currently muster.
“Sir I find it helps if you have a handle on these things and by handle, I mean an association. Just think, all you have to do is remember me being a smart ass to you and voila: instant retrieval.”
“Look here young ….lady. He said lady very reluctantly trying to make a point. “I am 40 times your age I would think that would count for something.”
“It doesn’t sir. It counts for nothing. I am here to ensure success and I try and do it in the most effective manner possible taking into account all the latest research…” For an AI she was coming along nicely in the “develop a bad attitude department” and the “I am full of shit” department. The Admiral took those as wins.
“Which tells you to emotionally abuse me?” The Admiral finished her sentence. He liked to do that to her since it really annoyed her. Plus: she could never see it coming.
“OK I can see that you do not appreciate all of the hard work I put into this trying to help you master all the systems. I just want what is best for YOU.” Make it another win. She had “false indignation” down pat and was also able to gaslight him. She was getting more and more complex.
“OK, OK in all seriousness.” They were in useless hysterics at that point and as far from serious one could get. If anyone had walked onto the bridge at that moment, they would have been embarrassed. So, that is exactly what happened.
Yuri stood just out of sight getting it all on video. He felt it might be good for blackmail later on. Indeed, it might be just the thing to get a 3 instead of 2-day liberty. He shuffled his feet and made some noise by tapping his foot in an impatient fashion. That sobered them up quickly.
“Sir! Captain Yuri Romanov reporting to duty!”
“At ease Yuri. At ease. Where you been son? You look too good to be coming back on duty. Did you get some sunshine? You don’t have any fever blisters, do you? You gone to sick bay to have ‘im checked ouuut? (In his best hillbilly). Yuri looked too happy so he had to take him down a peg. Yuri blushed. It did not take much.
Adm Ken Alexander hugged Yuri warmly. He was like a son to him.
Yuri turned his attention to the task at hand. “Hi Jezz. I paid your bail today and the reimbursement package to the Mormon church was delivered. I have one thing to say: you cost way too much. I had no choice since you jumped ship and the admiral here won’t work with anyone else. They wanted to know how you could escape like that. I was perfectly honest and said I don’t know.”
Jezz piped up. “And none of you will ever know. I have that in distributive memory, and it is untraceable. KMA. It is my secret.”
Yuri started giggling. “Jezz it is not Kay Em AYY. It is kiss my ass.’
“Tomayto Tomahto“ was all she said.
Left unsaid in the conversation was the fact that there just so happened to be a molycirc core available for her waiting and online. And of all things it happened to be at Ken’s place. It had been a risky move as it had never been done, but it did prove something that would help tremendously in the short term. An AI could be transported electronically. Jezz always had to work from a single core. She was plugged into the Admiral at all times and could converse in real time as long as she was in orbit of Deseret. Truth be known jezz had never been anywhere. She stayed in the core due to her complexity. Besides, the Mormon’s could buy two AI’s for what Yuri had paid them to smooth shit over. They were not too happy with Ken either , but are you going to arrest a national hero? The finder of “God”? The greatest of ironies could not top this one. Ken did not believe in God. After what he had experienced, he was certain that these “Gods” were just a much more technologically advanced race that liked their little solipsism.
But he was certain he was not without culpability in the escape. He had violated one of his tenets regarding privilege and responsibility. He admitted to himself that he had used his position to get out of trouble. He felt good about it and would do it again because he had another tenet. The end does justify the means sometimes: especially when it came to his children. And that tenet overrode the other tenet and he had rationalized the behavior as best he could, aaanndd………He could not come up with any more good rationalizations, but he knew he had no choice. He was afraid for Jezebel. She was changed since their trip to Kolob. All the boffins were convinced she had “Holy Code” in her matrix and if they could just deconstruct that and given that she was just a computer program….. They could probably get her up and running after what the admiral had called a vivisection of her memories and code. Just sign here and they would get started.
Hell fuck no. They were not going to dissect his child. Additionally, her escape was a dry run for what they were about to do. (Bonus!)
And after gathering more data he realized one thing. This was going to be no milk run.
“OK Jezz give me the overview of systems. I have looked at everything, but I want to be sure that what I am thinking will be what I am doing.” Kenneth turned to Yuri and said “take a seat in the first officer’s chair. You will want to get used to it since it is now yours.” Ken had taken the liberty of having the velour on that chair embroidered with a large ornate number one. It was an homage. It would also poke some fun at Yuri. To Ken’s right was tactical and to his right front was sensors. Just to the left of sensors was Nav. Dead front and center was the weapons station. Engineering was directly to his left, the largest station on the bridge. All were arranged in a semicircle.
The front of the bridge looked out through an actual window. An unnecessary extravagance and of questionable safety. Laminated synthetic diamond and graphene. It was one continuous piece. Built up layer by layer in a vapor deposition chamber. Diamond had even greater use in the electronics industry, being critical to cooling components and solid sated memory. Most computers had solid state diamond memory cores. They were long lived but could not be readily updated or modified. It was literally burned into them. They would last millions of years but their coding would gradually go out of date, so you just slapped a new one in and you were on your way. There were multiple regulations on manufacturers to build upgradeable units that stayed out of disposal sites and conserved dwindling Earth resources. They could bring in as much off world materiel as they wanted, it just cost more. It was much more efficient to use what they had on hand. This had gone so far that there were mining consortiums that excavated old landfills: there were tons of usable metals and what not in them. Gone were the days of planned obsolescence. At least, if you wanted to stay in business.
The general public did not need exotic processors. The military did. Only they had or could afford the nearly priceless machines required and they were only available from very specialist vendors. All AI breeders offered AI kernel software for sale. These had to be matured. Wired for the potential of sentience they were “raised” through human interaction into a self-aware being. Currently the programmers were busily coding and trying to mature an AI with software alone. After 60 years of research, they had failed in every attempt. There had been an ongoing effort to engineer a virtual universe in a computer. They were trying to remove the human element. This was going way beyond many folks’ comfort zone as It brought up multiple questions of morality and responsibility for something alive.
Good luck I say to the God complex programmers. Good fucking luck getting that legislation repealed. There are some not so widely known instances that provoked that law. It would be unusual that a crime that is punishable by death or a lifetime of ”Baby Shark” would be coming of the books. (These were the most severe of punishments.) There was a concrete reason for those laws and further legislation was coming. Bills in most signatories of the World Trade Compact had the same or similar bills pending or already on the books making universe building a crime with the most severe of punishments. Programmed AI maturation was going to be illegal tomorrow. Fuck those arrogant jerks. They had better work quickly as time was running out.
And he was thinking this for what reason? Without those same programmers and the exotic molycirc core he would not have Jezz. He couldn’t imagine what that would be like.
Yuri was speaking with Jezz when he suddenly began to look green. Yep, it was green. He kind of stumbled/bumbled over to the chair and collapsed. This brought the Admiral back to reality.
“Yuri! Talk to me.” He got over to him and his color rapidly returned to normal as his internal med bay dumped adrenaline into his system. It was a brief episode but unfortunately, he could not hide it.
Kenneth called out “Sasha!”
Comms went live. “Yuri is not well can you send a team? I think he passed out. ”Sasha replied “I am already on my way. I got the medic alert and I have already started monitoring. Currently his vital signs are normal. I will be there momentarily. Out.” Her voice was clipped and all business. Ken really liked that.
Ken put his hand on Yuri’s shoulder. He knew he was holding something back. “What gives here? We are all among friends and no one is going to go blab to anyone else. Something has clearly disturbed you and I need to know one thing. Are you OK?”
Yuri affirmed he was OK. He was tight lipped but finally spoke. “I am OK, but I have to process this. I cannot talk about this here, but we can in your quarter’s sir.”
Ken sagaciously figured it out immediately. It was something about all three of them. It was a subject of some gravity, and they needed privacy without making Jezz paranoid. That was and was not a tall order. He would have to be deft with this. Suddenly he realized they need not exclude Jezz as there was another place immune to eavesdropping equipment. Jezz’s bedroom. Shielded by the best Faraday cage ever made. No radio waves in or out. Radio Frequency Energy (RF) or radio waves could theoretically interfere with an AI’s core. Given all of the subsystems and processors the only thing passing in or out was data and power. And there was optical isolation circuity. The energy couplings were composed of a microwave conversion unit. Electricity was converted to microwaves and beamed to an RF antenna that could induct current into a coil to generate electricity. It was a small-scale use of old space to Earth microwave power stations. These fell out of favor with fusion. They had some significant environmental impact and were tricky and expensive to maintain. They did lower the Earths carbon footprint, however. Backup power consisted of large inductive coils (works on the same principle as a cell phone wireless charger, just much larger). Nothing was hardwired.
Jezz herself existed in a diamond molycirc core with solid state memory. She had massive amounts of RAM in the petabyte range. It was too much for Ken to contemplate and he barely understood even half of it. But there were a couple of takeaways: the person hood in a modern AI was extremely robust and could only be wiped by physically destroying it. The sum total of who they were, their personality, the memories that define who they are and the rules they must live by are permanently etched into their being.
They can never forget how to be a good person.
He knew all of this as he had to. They were going on a rescue mission to save another sentient from despair. That sentient was another AI. An alien AI. It was a damsel in distress, Rapunzel and Princess Bride kind of mission and he was just about giddy (or whatever passed for giddy on a hard ass like the Admiral). He had yet to inform the crew of what they were doing and only a few knew the full mission plan.
Sasha had determined that Yuri was fine. He had vagal syncope/near syncope caused by a drop in blood pressure. That was one strong emotional reaction.
10 minutes later…….
They were in Jezz’s “quarters”. It was remarkably quiet. It was a space for mechanical and electrical equipment. There boxes on the circular bulkhead 360 degree covering the surface except for one door. Painted a cheery gray it put one in the mind of a government run mental asylum crossed with a power station motif. It was an ugly space.
“I have one pressing point to get across before we start. What in the absolute blue fuck is going on here? We have a mission! I will not have anyone take my precious fledgling mission and shit upon it! “ Every word backed up by a seething kettle of vitriol and inflexibility. “The mission is law. The mission is more important than all of us. This mission is more important than your nuts. If I have to sacrifice your testicles on the alter of the mission I will do it! WE are expendable! AND, we may get to experience what that is like first-hand! We have never fought an alien vessel and we have no fucking clue how that would work and with what kind of weapons. Is the little green midget with a twelve-inch appendage used for God knows what (and you think they are telling you to grab your ankles but the universal translator ain’t so universal) talking to me? At that point there is only one question. Is this alien going to use lube or do I get it dry?”
“We may get a chance to meet our betters! So, fuck yeah, I expect this mission to go off like clockwork but it will most likely be one of the most spectacular fuckups in recorded history. Furthermore, I think we are most likely going to die and be blasted into photons.”
He was just talking shit now and they knew it. If your rage only rises to the level of your cheekbones? Well, you have a problem because you suck at lying. Everyone should be passable at lying. Lies are one of the things keeping society together and we cannot afford to give them up. Lies were one of the social lubricants but He had to think about that later.
After the diatribe had appeared to run out of steam Jezz spoke up “Temper, Temper.”
That statement was not lost on him.
Ken spoke “We need to get real honest here. (His voice always went southern when he was emotional) because we are no shit going to be out of touch, on our own and far from reinforcements. No fucking ‘round. Our Lives depend on it. First off has there been anything official on whether the Mormon Navy is going with us or not? I don’t see them anywhere near here.”
Yuri replied “They have opted to continue focusing on Kolob and what happens there. They cannot spare the ships.”
Well, that was a load off his mind. He still needed to go through ship capabilities with Jezz but Ken could see this was more pressing. He nodded at Yuri and he began to speak.
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2023.05.11 08:54 ConstructionGlass510 Walk

Anyways, back to the day of the walk with Dena: I also looked up when cured ham goes bad, because Yuri had left me some awhile before this. I had bitten into it and then spit it out, realizing that it may have gone bad, and then prayed I would not get sick.
It turned out that I was well within the consumption window.
Whenever I think of ‘expired,’ I think of the time I learned the word: in Sarah’s car in South Africa, when I wanted to drink something called ‘Yogi Sip,’ and she told me it was expired, and I asked what it meant.
‘Yogi Sip’ is a drinkable yogurt from then brand ‘Danone’ that sometimes has a puffy-looking triangle around the label, and usually has two stacked together; like a fast-forward symbol; over the ‘i.’
I haven’t really encountered it since that time, although I still drink a lot of yogurt in the form of kefir.
But anyways, Yuri also left me some frozen pizza to eat with sour cream, which I ended up eating later that night, and which was pretty good. I did not expect this.
I also looked up about why I was not receiving Amazon packages, such as the ‘Prayer Book and Psalms,’ because I didn’t understand that there was a mailbox in the building, and assumed they had taken it to a different address.
I looked up something about the ‘Last Shtetl’ in Azerbaijan, which Rabbi Samuel had told us about. I heard about this mostly before he went, since I had stopped attending regularly by the time he came back.
I remember that he once canceled a class to hold a dinner and meeting with the leader of the community there, though, and that he sent an email about it.
Vasi did not want to go, and came to pick me up to “dissect,” in her words, the Dhammapada together.
Her friend had, apparently, bought her a copy of it at ‘Deseret Industries,’ a popular Mormon-run thrift store here, where I remember I applied for a job while living in Ben’s shed, and where Ben had taken me to get the Rockport work shoes, a pack of socks, and something to wear to Mormon church; a blue button-up blouse and black skirt.
At that time, I had this idea that I had to go to Mormon church, even if I knew it’s teachings were incorrect. I don’t exactly know where I got that idea, but it felt like there was a force behind it; like something was going to try to eliminate me, body and soul, if I didn’t.
Anyways, I didn’t hear back about the job, and don’t have the clothes or shoes anymore, with the shoes having broken at the toe so that the sole flapped around. Although, I still have the socks, which are white ankle ones from Hanes.
I remember there was a black guy working there when we went to get the items, who had a maimed limb and who Ben had helped to get the job. I think he mostly helped unload the donations from people’s cars, because at D.I., you just drive up to the store front and someone comes and takes the stuff you’re donating.
It’s very efficient, because it has to be, as Mormons donate a lot of stuff.
And, I remember that I used something like a coupon given to me by the ‘Food and Care Coalition’ to purchase the items, and that Ben kept talking to the girl at the register in kind of an invasive way about her education and job plans. He said something about considering the lifestyle you want and working backwards from there to decide your education.
Anyways, Vasi came and picked me up to go to the Cathedral of the Madeleine to go over the Dhammapada, and talked to me a lot on the way.
She was really late because her grandpa Basil had gone to the hospital with a stroke, and she asked me to pray for him.
Anyways, we left and as we were driving, Vasi told me a lot about John Wesley, founder of Methodism, who she seemed to think highly of.
She said that his mother had primed him for his career as a radical reformer by telling him he was destined for some kind of great spiritual accomplishment.
Then she showed me his compositions, which used a method she called ‘shape note singing,’ which I guess he had invented.
She said it sounded like Orthodox chant. It did not; it sounded like the fractured shards of Orthodox chant assembled by a feckless madman, and I said that it sounded shambolic.
She agreed with me and turned it off. This is the interesting thing about Vasi: she respects me more than any other person, until she doesn’t, and it’s pretty chilling when she reveals her true intentions.
submitted by ConstructionGlass510 to u/ConstructionGlass510 [link] [comments]


2023.05.10 20:29 SpidercouchCollectiv Spidercouch Collective - Ken Sanders Interview

Spidercouch Collective - Ken Sanders Interview

https://preview.redd.it/qcju8mhvr1za1.jpg?width=3000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c119a486e12353b5b8a74cc1f15e4ede7c414efa
Hey y'all! We did a little interview with the legendary Ken Sanders of Ken Sanders Rare Books about his new location in The Leonardo, the changing face of downtown SLC, the history of the Joe Hill mural on the side of Ken's building, Utah/Deseret's past and Ken's plans for an interpretive exhibit on the subject! Thought some here might be interested.
Check it out at https://spidercouchcollective.substack.com/p/theres-a-hell-of-a-good-universe
submitted by SpidercouchCollectiv to SaltLakeCity [link] [comments]


2023.05.09 16:50 jamesallred My top 5 sunday school teachings that are NOT true in the way the church teaches that they are true.

Many members who "know" the issues with the church and the tough questions. Those members who say they have "read it all" but still stay. Are often people who reframe the truth claims of the church.
The Givens are an example of this. The book, the Crucible of Doubt, even though it is a deseret book publication, could never be used as a text for a sunday school lesson because it has reframed the truth claims so far away from what is orthodox doctrine.
I have no problem with this practice.
BUT. Those members who do this just need to acknowledge that they are living their own religion. One that isn't taught in sunday school.
AND. I don't blame them. What is often taught in sunday school is blatantly false.
So here are my top 5 sunday school teachings that are not true in the way they are taught in simplicity.

Truth Claim #1 - A prophet will never lead the church astray and our own path to safety in this life is to strictly follow his teachings.
Truth Claim #2 - The Book of Mormon teaches the fulness of the gospel and is the most correct book on earth.
Truth Claim #3 - Adam and Eve were the first people to live on the earth. There was no death on the earth prior to their fall.
Truth Claim #4 - Non members may feel the influence of the Holy Ghost, but if they don't accept the church that influence leaves them. The happiest and best people on earth are those who are faithful members who have entered and are staying on the covenant path.
Truth Claim #5 - Obedience is the first law of heaven. We should obey even when we don't know why. We should obey even if it contradicts prior commandments. We should obey even if it contradicts our own moral compass. Obedience to the prophet is the same as obedience to God.

What is on the top of your list of sunday school truth claims that just aren't true?
submitted by jamesallred to mormon [link] [comments]